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Missouri Bullet "SmallBall" max recommended velocity?

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azar

azar

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Having never loaded a lead bullet until recently, I was wondering about what velocity range I should aim for in order to keep leading to a minimum?

I'm using the Missouri Bullet "SmallBall" 125g LRN (Brinell hardness of 18) out of my 9mm Luger w/ Hodgdon Universal. I know, I know, Winchester 231 is a better powder for this application. :rolleyes: I was originally going to go with plated or jacketed and I already have the powder, so...

Should I expect leading at 1,000 fps? 950 fps?

I'll be testing my loads tomorrow (range day, yay!) which will probably clock in between 950 to 1,050 fps. If it makes any difference, the gun is a Springfield XD9 with a 4" barrel.
 
I am pushing MB 158gr swc at about 1,000 fps with minimal leading. These are 18bhn also. Accuracy out of one of my Dan Wesson .357s so far is 1 5/16" at 25 yards. I will do a little more experimentation and see if I can do better. I'm very pleased with these bullets. I just started using them a week ago. When I started trying them the accuracy was bad. It was so bad that I thought no amount of adjusting could get them down to under 2" which is my bare minimum accuracy and 1.5" is what all other loads will do albeit with jacketed bullets that cost more. I will be ordering more of these bullets. Using these over the jacketed bullets I've been using, 125gr Remington JSP, saves .05 per round or 2.50 per box of 50. The reason I have used jacketed bullets all these years is because I had a horrible experience with leading and swore off of cast forever. Glad I gave them a second chance now.
 
You should be able to push that bullet at max data without problems. 1150ish or so FPS. Slower with less pressure will be worse with an 18BHN bullet. 950 FPS is more apt to lead than 1150 FPS, but it may be fine at 950 as well. Only one way to find out.
 
Yeah, I was just reading about that. The hardness of the lead will affect what speed range should be one's goal?

Correct me if I've got this wrong...

Softer lead (lower Brinell Hardness) needs to be pushed slower, or it will lead at higher velocities.
Harder lead (higher Brinell Hardness) may tend to lead at too slow of a velocity and will work better when pushed faster.

Is that about right? Thanks for the feedback!
 
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Yes.

Harder lead needs more pressure to expand and seal the bore to stop gas cutting. Softer lead will obturate (expand) and seal the bore at lower pressures like .38 Spl and .44 Spl.

The lead has to be hard enough to "grip" the rifling without skidding. If the bullet skids, it will break the seal in the bore and cause gas cutting and leading. The higher the velocity, the harder it has to be, but that is not a problem most of the time. There also has to be enough lube for the trip down the bore. With pistols that is seldom an issue.
 
Also have to look very closely at sized diameter, especially with very hard bullets driven w/o much pressure. For my 9mm's that have groove diameters over the defacto .355", bullets sized .356" can be too small for best results. I cast my own, and they get sized .357", .358", and even left unsized at .359". Basically if they chamber easily, then all is well. Also find a softer type bullet lube works better at slower velocities/less intensity over harder types.

Should you find the bullets leading too much after experimenting, I have lightly tumble lubed the offending bullets with Lee Liquid ALOX to save the day.
 
Very good points, especially about diameter, which I failed to mention. :)
 
Well, the MB "SmallBall" is sized to .356 but I haven't measured the actual bore size of my XD9.

Anyone out there who has an XD9 who knows what it measures?
OR what's the best way to slug a pistol bore?
 
Don't know, but most nines work just fine with .356 lead. Enough pressure will take care of the bump up, unless your bore is way over.

Stop worrying, load them, shoot them, and post the results. A nice near max load of the universal you have should work just fine.
 
I recently had a lengthy discussion on this subject with the bulletmaker I buy bullets from. He advised me that the correct bullet diameter relative to bore diameter was more important than hardness and that with a properly sized bullet of 18 Brinnel hardness you should be able to achieve velocities of 1400-1500 FPS without leading problems. His recommendation was when in doubt go a little larger and that in some cases he had seen guns that shot best with bullets up to .004" larger than bore diameter. He's been at it a long long time and sells several million cast bullets a year and has never steered me wrong.
 
I shot all 89 bullets yesterday (one wouldn't pass the "drop test" due to a slightly crooked bullet). Not a single issue. All loads cycled the gun reliably. I definitely had leading with the 3.8g, 3.9g, and possibly 4.0g loads. Nothing horrible, but definitely noticeable. I enjoyed shooting the 4.1g load and the 4.2g load as well. The 4.3g was also fine, but not as soft as I want for a plinking load.

The crappy part was I got to the range early and setup my 6.5x55 in one lane and my pistol in the lane next to it. But the range got busy real quick due to closures over the holidays. So I had no target to shoot to test the pistol loads, except for the first time around. So I really have no idea on the accuracy of each load. Not that it matters much. I'm a lousy pistol shot. :rolleyes:

Hopefully that will change with all the practice I'll get shooting my own reloads at a reduced cost.
 
I'm a lousy pistol shot.
Click to expand...

Dry-fire, my friend... dry-fire. I was simply *amazed* at how much my accuracy jumped by simply going on a consistent 2x day, 5 minute session of dry firing. I'd done it before, but not nearly as much. But recently read an article that said you have to train your body not to expect the gun to go bang every time you pull the trigger. Only regular dry fire drills will do that.
 
I definitely had leading with the 3.8g, 3.9g, and possibly 4.0g loads. Nothing horrible, but definitely noticeable. I enjoyed shooting the 4.1g load and the 4.2g load as well. The 4.3g was also fine, but not as soft as I want for a plinking load.
Click to expand...
Sounds like you need the 12 BHN bullets.
 
editingfx,

That's good advice. There's a lot of debate on whether dry firing hurts a gun or not. I tend to believe not, except in the case of a rimfire but I don't consider myself an expert on the matter. Do you use snap caps when dry firing or nothing at all?

Walkalong,

Who makes a good .356 caliber 12 BHN bullet, preferably in the 124 to 125 grain weight? Also, where is a good place to read up the various aspects of loading lead (when to use a 18 BHN vs. a 12 BHN, what velocities to aim for, etc)? A good website? Maybe the Lyman cast bullet handbook? Lyman pistol & revolver handbook?
 
Missouri Bullet will make em for you. They can also make bullets at 14 BHN, which might be better. Call Brad and ask him what your possiblities are.

Cast Boolits ;)

Where was the internet when many of us were learning how? :)
 
That is a good article. Grant Cunningham is very well thought of as a gunsmith.

What BHN is like asking what charcoal to grill steaks. No set answer, and everyone has their favorite. :D
 
Walkalong and gang, you've been a huge help. I'll email Brad and ask what BHN he can do and if there is any price difference between that and the standard 18. I'm thinking somewhere in the 14 to 16 range.

I have another question, if you don't mind. What are the primary factors in how smokey a cast load is: The lube used? The powder pushing the bullet? The velocity? A combination of the above?
 
Lube mostly. Powder is a small part. If you have gas cutting, you will get more smoke as well. A good seal at the rear (proper alloy for the pressure) will really help keep smoke down.

Bottom line is, there will be some smoke.
 
I loaded up 50 rounds of 4.2g of Universal and shot them up a while back. Lots and lots of leading. :( I don't think I have ever scrubbed a barrel so much. I've still got little spots of leading here and there, but I'm calling it good for now.

I'm guessing that the next step is to slug my bore to find out it's actual diameter, as the 0.356 "SmallBall" bullets might be undersized for my gun. Anyone know a common brand of fishing sinker that's suitable?
 
Does this guy know what he's talking about? If those formula's for optimum / maximum BHN are accurate that's pretty handy to know...
Click to expand...

Don't know the guy, but that formula has been posted in this forum a few gazillion times. The 1422 number is used because BHN is measured in kg/mm^2. To convert kg/mm^2 to PSI, after a fairly large amount of number crunching, you just multiply by 1422.

I do take exception to this statement
(Pressure is listed in either CUP or PSI; they are slightly different, but for this particular question either will be close enough to get the answer we need.)
Click to expand...
I just don't think "close" is what you want when dealing with pressures like that. However, CUP (actually "CUPS" but...) is what you'll find on the Missouri Bullet website. I tried to talk Brad into changing that, but have been unsuccessful thusfar.

You can get a much better PSI estimate of a CUP measurement using this formula: PSI=(CUP*1.516)-17,902 It's still not an exact PSI, but it's better than just substituting one for the other and calling it close enough.

I don't know how much difference it makes as far as leading goes, but I can tell you that it makes a big difference in accuracy if you stay inside the parameters. Best accuracy is around 90% of the PSI. So for a BHN of 18, you'll want the pressure to be somewhere 23,000 PSI (26,980 CUP) for good accuracy. If you have a choice, stay a bit lower than a bit higher. If you get higher, accuracy goes to the hot place in a handbag real fast.

Mom always said it would pay off to color inside the lines...

Edit - I should also add that if you have a load that produces a certain pressure, you can reverse that formula to find out what BHN your bullets need to be. I'm told Brad will make them as hard or soft as you need.
 
Lots and lots of leading. I don't think I have ever scrubbed a barrel so much. I've still got little spots of leading here and there, but I'm calling it good for now.
Click to expand...

Slightly off topic but a brass brush wrapped in chore boy should make light work of getting that lead out.
 
I've heard of using the all-copper (not copper washed steel) Chore Boy pads. Do you know of someone who carries them? They are not a common local brand. I don't think I've ever seen them on the shelves, nor had I even ever heard of them before a few months ago when I decided to try my hand at loading lead.

I guess the other option is the Lewis Lead Remover. At this stage I'd rather not buy it until I decide for sure that I'm sticking with a lead load. Hopefully, I'll find a powder charge that will work with minimal leading, a proper sized lead bullet that may fit better than the default 0.356", or an easy inexpensive way to clean the gun. Otherwise I'll probably just switch to plated when this box is gone. I do love the price and fast shipping of the Missouri Bullets though!
 
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