El Tejon
Member
BTW, for those that care, the shotguns will not be "melted down". They are sold to dealers in other states with resale covenants of 250 miles. The money is used for "equipment" and "training".
(MO) Police Ditch Shotguns for Rifles
- Thread starter Drizzt
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I'll agree with most of the statements in this thread that it was a mistake to rid the department of all shotguns in favor of a 9mm Carbine; however, I cannot agree with the sentiment in the following:
I will not argue this point, I am not trying to start an argument either, nor am I trying to belittle anyone's post. I am just giving you all a good 'try it yourself test'. Go have some fun and maybe learn something from it about using 00 buckshot in combat relative especially to any urban or suburban or home defense situation. Then remember about being sure of your target and what is beyond it, and about being responsible for any lead you fire out of your gun.
All the best,
Glenn B
Does anyone else see anything wrong with the quoted statement regarding the typical combat situation that would require a shotgun with double aught buck? If not, I am quite surprised. If you don't see something wrong with the picture painted by said statement, try a little test. Take a 12 gauge, with slug barrel as used by PDs, load it with 00 buckshot, fire it at a paper combat target (with life sized depiction of bad guy) at 5 yards. Then up goes a new paper target and you move back and fire again at 10 yards. Then up goes a new paper target and you move back and fire from 15 yards. Now count the pellet holes in the bad guy, and see if any made it outside the bad guy, onto other areas of the paper or even on the very outer edges of the BG (such would likely be passing through clothing only). All hit the bad guy, good for you, there is a good chance such would be the case from 15 yards. Now up goes a new target and you move to 20 yards and fire from there. Now count those pellet holes on this target. You may have started to see the picture at 15 but, you will almost definitely see it at 20 yards using the run of the mill police shotgun, lets say a remington 870 with 18 or 20 inch slug barrel and, with departmental type ammo 2 3/4 inch 00 buckshot. Now move to 25 yards after first having put up a new paper bad guy target. See how many pellets fired from 25 yards actually hit the bad guy on that paper, how many hit elsewhere on the paper and how many missed paper all together. Then tell yourself what is wrong with the statement in the above quote.
I will not argue this point, I am not trying to start an argument either, nor am I trying to belittle anyone's post. I am just giving you all a good 'try it yourself test'. Go have some fun and maybe learn something from it about using 00 buckshot in combat relative especially to any urban or suburban or home defense situation. Then remember about being sure of your target and what is beyond it, and about being responsible for any lead you fire out of your gun.
All the best,
Glenn B
The Real Hawkeye
member
At least the reflex sighted 9mm carbines will make a head shot easier in the case of heavily armored bank robbers shooting it out with them in the streets. That is assuming they are required to train and qualify with them regularly.
fistful
member
Actually, that one was written by Dylan. Good song.
OH25shooter
Member
A female street officer holding a rifle is scary to me. 
carebear
Member
The price per weapon usually includes all the accessories and accoutrement.
Spare mags, "special" cleaning gear, parts for the armory, training support, all that kind of stuff. Heck, the rep probably talked them into using the high-speed battery Eotech rather than the AA compatible.
Spare mags, "special" cleaning gear, parts for the armory, training support, all that kind of stuff. Heck, the rep probably talked them into using the high-speed battery Eotech rather than the AA compatible.
CARRY'IN
member
I hear ya. Nothing like someone with a gun telling you that you cant have one (I always say). Police using military weapons, swat teams with nazi helmets, snipers blasting women and children; it all makes me nervous.
And the only reason I could see them using 9mm would be for magazine commonality. Just using the same ammo cant save them that much money. If it cant accept their service pistol mag it is a poor choice.
It's not that the ammo will save them money, the savings will be in logistics -- fewer cops doing paperwork on supplies, more cops on patrol.
That said, I like the idea of a scattergun and a CX4 in 10mm in each squad car, though slug barrels seems like a bad call.
That said, I like the idea of a scattergun and a CX4 in 10mm in each squad car, though slug barrels seems like a bad call.
ZeroX
Member
That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I'd much rather have a 12 gauge pumpgun than a 9mm carbine. And if I had to have a rifle, I'd actually want a *gasp* rifle caliber.
CARRY'IN
member
Have to throw the BS flag on that one.
Texian Pistolero
member
There was a time when I believed that there was a place for 9mm or .45 ACP
carbines,
but my current opinion is that if you are not upgrading all the wat to 5.56 mm or 7.62 mm,
then you are just short stroking the mule.
carbines,
but my current opinion is that if you are not upgrading all the wat to 5.56 mm or 7.62 mm,
then you are just short stroking the mule.
cracked butt
Member
Glen- I've rolled Turkeys at 15 yards further out with a whole lot less. A real live living breathing moving target, not a hypothetical paper target.
I've never shot anything with buckshot other than leftover jack-o-lanterns and pumpkins from halloween. No problems whatsoever hitting them at that range, and that is with a regular old non-ninjafied scattergun. With cheapo foster slugs, I can easily hit a pumpkin at twice that distance.
With your example even if only one piece of buckshot hits at 25+ yards, its still a far cry better than real life police shooting at such ranges with a handgun.
newfalguy101
Member
Seems to me that it would have made a whole lot more sence to buy .223's or something along those lines, than to get pistol caliber carbines, especially if they are talking about threats beyond 25 yards.
I hope you are right, but, the article quoted in the first post says otherwise:
I hope you are right, but, the article quoted in the first post says otherwise:
fastbolt
Member
I was sort of hoping that what with the Rifle OR Shotgun debate occurring in most places, the pistol-caliber shoulder weapon would be fading into well deserved obscurity in L/E work ...
Both the shotgun and the rifle have advantages and potential dedicated uses in L/E work, with some overlap possible depending on training and specific circumstances.
Personally? For most circumstances I anticipate, based on personal experience over the last 24 years, I'm perfectly comfortable continuing to carry a standard Remington 870 in my unmarked car. For those instances where a rifle (AR) would be more appropriate, though, I'd be comfortable using a rifle. It's just another tool, and I seldom like discarding one type of tool, best suited for some tasks, just to make room for another tool which might be better suited for other tasks.
Training considerations, including ammunition and training/qualification time, may be too much for some agencies that want to streamline their costs & training, and not simply add to the existing ones ...
Equipping vehicles with both weapons systems seem to maximize the tools available for a potentially more diversified number of anticipated needs, though.
Both the shotgun and the rifle have advantages and potential dedicated uses in L/E work, with some overlap possible depending on training and specific circumstances.
Personally? For most circumstances I anticipate, based on personal experience over the last 24 years, I'm perfectly comfortable continuing to carry a standard Remington 870 in my unmarked car. For those instances where a rifle (AR) would be more appropriate, though, I'd be comfortable using a rifle. It's just another tool, and I seldom like discarding one type of tool, best suited for some tasks, just to make room for another tool which might be better suited for other tasks.
Training considerations, including ammunition and training/qualification time, may be too much for some agencies that want to streamline their costs & training, and not simply add to the existing ones ...
Equipping vehicles with both weapons systems seem to maximize the tools available for a potentially more diversified number of anticipated needs, though.
This is not ment as a flame, but regards to the statement that someone has made about if only one piece of Buck shoot hits the target they would be happy. The problem with that in relation to Law Enforcement work is, that an LEO is responsible for every round fired and every pellet out of that round. If it hits a non hostile or damages someones property they have to answer for that injury or damage.
This is something that those of us that use a weapon for self defense or home protection might want to think about when making a selection of a defensive weapon. Because you too could be held to this when and if that time to use you weapon comes.
Just my .02 from what I have heard and read.
This is something that those of us that use a weapon for self defense or home protection might want to think about when making a selection of a defensive weapon. Because you too could be held to this when and if that time to use you weapon comes.
Just my .02 from what I have heard and read.
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cracked butt
Member
AL-Gunner I gree with you.
If an officer can't hit someone with a shotgun at 25 yards, they probably shouldn't be carrying a gun at all.
If an officer can't hit someone with a shotgun at 25 yards, they probably shouldn't be carrying a gun at all.
Nimitz
Member
gimmie an AR or 12ga before those....ewww 
Chad
Chad
fistful
member
Garands? Those long, heavy things, firing .30-06 rounds out of 8-round en-bloc chargers? Among other things, what about lights, scopes, lasers, etc?
Yeah, I know, Wyatt Earp and Chesty Puller didn't need no fancy stuff like that, so the cops don't either. But for those of us living in the real world, these are considerations.
And how much choke did you have on that gun? Could it be that turkey guns have among the tightest chokes available? These guys are shooting cylinder/modified.
As far as the use of rifles is concerned, its hard to imagine many urban police encounters in which officers would be takin 100 yard shots. And seriously, considering the average LEOs performance with a pistol i dont want them even ATTEMPTING such feats. Really, the shotgun is nice in officer hands simply because they are less likely to kill innocent people when they miss.
coonan357
Member
the countie mounties in my local carry 12's (870's or mossy590's ) and an Ar in the trunk , and the specialists ( anti terrorist team) carry 308 rems in the trunk also with an assortment of ammo's . in an urban area I think a 9 mm would be better as the range/penetration factors isn't as far as a .308 as one of the officers even said is a little overkill at times, and the logistics of ammo is a major consideration as if the rifle person doesn't have to carry seperate ammo and mags to handle a firefight , if it gets too out of hand thats what the boys in Bdus are for . when I was talking to one of they specialists his trunk had about 50 pounds of different types of ammo . talk about a logistics mess . I got him a crate made so its all now orginized and doesn't flop around back there .
Guys sorry for the bad spelling in my last post. It was late and I was not wide awake. My statement has nothing to do with if an officer can not hit at 25 yards or not. It had to do with they are responsible for every projectile out the barrel no matter were or what they hit.
Now the new LE rounds have a new wad cup that is great and does extend the capable distance of the buckshot round. For applicatioins that arre too far for buckshot slugs work great for the longer distance. The key thing is training and pratice with your weapon.
I will say I am for the AR platform weapon in patrol cars in all settings. The 5.56 round has less over penatration issuses that the 12 gauge and the handgun rounds.
Again this is my .02 and some testing on this topic.
Gary
Now the new LE rounds have a new wad cup that is great and does extend the capable distance of the buckshot round. For applicatioins that arre too far for buckshot slugs work great for the longer distance. The key thing is training and pratice with your weapon.
I will say I am for the AR platform weapon in patrol cars in all settings. The 5.56 round has less over penatration issuses that the 12 gauge and the handgun rounds.
Again this is my .02 and some testing on this topic.
Gary
Primersinmyshoe
Member
I live in St. Louis and am not suprised by Mokwa's decision. I call it the "dumbing down" of the PD, and it's embarrasing. Just because the money came from confiscated drug money doesn't mean they couldn't have spent it on - are you ready? - training. But no, they had to go and buy those silly toy carbines.
Just remember, this is coming from a state where we elected a dead guy :banghead:
Just remember, this is coming from a state where we elected a dead guy :banghead:
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