Model 19/66 S&W
- Thread starter Jim_100
- Start date
- Status
Because people want to shoot the lighter-bullet, high-velocity loads that blowtorch the thinner forcing cone/breech end of the barrels. When the Combat Magnum was introduced, typical .357 mag ammo was loaded with 158-grain lead bullets, which is kinder to the guns, and folks typically shot mostly mild .38 Specials for most of their training, and just a few magnums though their 19/66 sixguns. Those who wanted to hammer a bunch of magnums did that with their N-frames, if they had large-enough hands.
The L-frames, Models 585/686/581/681, were developed to stand up to the modern loads, in higher doses, while still having small-enough grip frames for mere mortals.
The 19/66 IS still a perfect packin' pistol for the DA sixgunner, but one should take care of them to keep them shootin' long-term. There are minty ones on the pre-owned market; one must be patient in searching.
The L-frames, Models 585/686/581/681, were developed to stand up to the modern loads, in higher doses, while still having small-enough grip frames for mere mortals.
The 19/66 IS still a perfect packin' pistol for the DA sixgunner, but one should take care of them to keep them shootin' long-term. There are minty ones on the pre-owned market; one must be patient in searching.
Closely examine the breech end of a K-frame, and an L-frame, side-by-side, to see what I mean. The L-frame has a more meaty barrel. So does the Ruger Security/Service/Speed Six, and GP100. I have a 4" Speed Six and a 6" Security Six, plus GP100s and SP101s, so I don't urgently need a 19, but I deeply regret selling/trading my 19s in the 1990's, to finance a 1911 fling, and when a really good 19 presents itself locally, I plan to claim it. (My local dealer will do a 2-day hold for me, and a three-month layaway.)
MachIVshooter
Member
What Rexter said. The K-frame magnums cannot handle a steady diet of hot loads. They'll end up out of time and/or loose cylinder lock-up. L and N frames can take it (but they sure don't pack as nice).
I love my model 65, I just use my 586 or 686 when I wanna "feel the power".
The GP is a different animal from the -six series. I have a 4" stainless security, and I've damaged it. They're equivalent to K frames, maybe a touch stronger. Still can't take lots of nasty 110 or 125 grain loads.
The GP-100= L-frame
I love my model 65, I just use my 586 or 686 when I wanna "feel the power".
The GP is a different animal from the -six series. I have a 4" stainless security, and I've damaged it. They're equivalent to K frames, maybe a touch stronger. Still can't take lots of nasty 110 or 125 grain loads.
The GP-100= L-frame
Confederate
Member
Two thousand full throttle rounds will put some serious wear on a 19/66. But not only light bullets, the heavy recoil of any magnum load will torque the frame and eventually warp it. The Rugers avoided this by designing their guns with solid frames. Recoil is evenly distributed throughout. While the Smiths were falling apart, locking up ang going out of time, Rugers were holding up remarkably well. Skeeter Skelton said he knew of three Security-Sixes, each which had digested over 30,000 rounds! One was slightly out of time, but was fully fuctional.
C.E. Harris said he wore out a K-framed 19 by firing 2,000 hot magnum loads. After repairing it once, he put another couple thousand magnum rounds through it before frame warping finally damaged the gun beyond repair. So think about 5,000 rounds as a lifespan with hot loads.
If you shoot .38s and +Ps in them, they should last forever. Then an occasional magnum cylinder or two won't make a difference. Although I've seen cracked forcing cones in 66/65 revovers, stainless steel resists gas cutting and blasts better than blued carbon steel.
I wish Ruger would reintroduce their Security- and Speed-Six models. I don't like the heavier models, their stubby grip shafts, lock-ups and balance. They're certainly no improvement over the earlier models.
C.E. Harris said he wore out a K-framed 19 by firing 2,000 hot magnum loads. After repairing it once, he put another couple thousand magnum rounds through it before frame warping finally damaged the gun beyond repair. So think about 5,000 rounds as a lifespan with hot loads.
If you shoot .38s and +Ps in them, they should last forever. Then an occasional magnum cylinder or two won't make a difference. Although I've seen cracked forcing cones in 66/65 revovers, stainless steel resists gas cutting and blasts better than blued carbon steel.
I wish Ruger would reintroduce their Security- and Speed-Six models. I don't like the heavier models, their stubby grip shafts, lock-ups and balance. They're certainly no improvement over the earlier models.
The Bushmaster
Member
I own and carry a Mod 19 nickel plated Combat Magnum 2 1/2". And as long as you use 140 grain bullets or heavier (up to 158 grain) you will be O K...
BCRider
Member
I got the same info from a couple of long time shooters that kicked the hell out of their 19's "back in the day". After many, many thousands of rounds of full power magnums including maximum power reloads all that happened was that the timing shot itself a touch loose over the years. The fellow I talked to did mention when I asked that the reloads were all done with the heavier bullet options. Good luck or good planning? Hard to say but these two fellows did it and didn't split the forcing cones on either gun.
For my range time on my 6 inch 19 I like to mostly put upper end .38's or .38+P's thru the gun with the occasional magnum for giggles. Sometimes I play "revovler roulette" with five .38's and a single Magnum. It sure tells me in a hurry if I've still got any flinch going on...
The only downside is that since the sights are set for the .38 speeds the magnum hits about 2 or 2.5 inches low at 12'ish yards.MachIVshooter quote: "The GP is a different animal from the -six series. I have a 4" stainless security, and I've damaged it. They're equivalent to K frames, maybe a touch stronger. Still can't take lots of nasty 110 or 125 grain loads."
I didn't mean to imply the DA Sixes were as strong as the GP100, just that they were beefier than the K-frames. I use 145-grain Silvertips in my Speed Six. It's as much because old Sixes don't control recoil for me, as for the weapon's strength/longevity issue. The way my Speed Six recoils, into my hand and wrist, though, anyone who can wear out one of them has my respect.
Anyone planning to fire a high number of lightweight, high-velocity .357 mag bullets should use the guns really built to take a steady diet of them. S&W L-frames were designed for that task, as was the GP100. The way they lock-up, I would say the GP100 has an edge, over the L, but others insist their L-frames stand up to hot 125s well enough, and I won't argue with them.
I didn't mean to imply the DA Sixes were as strong as the GP100, just that they were beefier than the K-frames.
I use 145-grain Silvertips in my Speed Six. It's as much because old Sixes don't control recoil for me, as for the weapon's strength/longevity issue. The way my Speed Six recoils, into my hand and wrist, though, anyone who can wear out one of them has my respect.Anyone planning to fire a high number of lightweight, high-velocity .357 mag bullets should use the guns really built to take a steady diet of them. S&W L-frames were designed for that task, as was the GP100. The way they lock-up, I would say the GP100 has an edge, over the L, but others insist their L-frames stand up to hot 125s well enough, and I won't argue with them.
The 125 grain bullets driven to maximum velocities used large charges of relatively slow-burning powders. Handloaders know the powder types as WW296 and H-110, among others. The combination of slow ball-type powders and the short bearing surface of the 125 bullets allows prolonged gas cutting of the forcing cone and top strap area, accelerating erosion and wear.
Borescope studies of rifle, machine gun, and auto cannon chamber throats shows a lizzard-skin-like texture due to this gas cutting damage, called "brinelling". The results of brinelling are fine microcracks that weaken the surface of the steel, and further promote erosion. In machine guns and auto cannons, barrel life is measured in terms of "useable accuracy", and round counts that determine this are based on group sizes at engagement ranges.
In the K-frame magnums, the forcing cone dimensions combined with the barrel shank dimensions results in a relatively thin shank at the 6 o'clock position, where a machine cut is made to clear the crane. This is usually where the forcing cone cracks. The L and N frames use much beefier barrel shanks and do not have this cut. S&W intended the K frame magnums to be "carried much and fired seldom" service arms, designed to fire .38 Specials indefinitely, with light to moderate use of .357 Magnums.
Solution? Practice w/38 special/357 midrange loads. Shoot magnum loads just to see how they'll do, but lay off them in extensive practice.
Borescope studies of rifle, machine gun, and auto cannon chamber throats shows a lizzard-skin-like texture due to this gas cutting damage, called "brinelling". The results of brinelling are fine microcracks that weaken the surface of the steel, and further promote erosion. In machine guns and auto cannons, barrel life is measured in terms of "useable accuracy", and round counts that determine this are based on group sizes at engagement ranges.
In the K-frame magnums, the forcing cone dimensions combined with the barrel shank dimensions results in a relatively thin shank at the 6 o'clock position, where a machine cut is made to clear the crane. This is usually where the forcing cone cracks. The L and N frames use much beefier barrel shanks and do not have this cut. S&W intended the K frame magnums to be "carried much and fired seldom" service arms, designed to fire .38 Specials indefinitely, with light to moderate use of .357 Magnums.
Solution? Practice w/38 special/357 midrange loads. Shoot magnum loads just to see how they'll do, but lay off them in extensive practice.
One of my all time favorite Revolvers is the shorty 19 and 66.
What a perfect little gun they were/are.
Not too heavy. Not too light. Just right.
Great shooters. Good lookers. Reliable beauty.
Tons of custom grips abound, so you can make one gun fit just about anyone.
Jeff (GUNKWAZY)
What a perfect little gun they were/are.
Not too heavy. Not too light. Just right.
Great shooters. Good lookers. Reliable beauty.
Tons of custom grips abound, so you can make one gun fit just about anyone.
Jeff (GUNKWAZY)
madcratebuilder
Member
The M19/66 is a very wimpy revolver, a few boxes of .357 well have them twisted up like a pretzel. I feel sorry for the guys that got sucked in with the S&W kool-aid, so sorry that I well easy your pain and offer to buy your soon to be junk revolver for $200 cash money, just PM me for details.
CajunBass
Member
Way back in the day, when I was a teen-ager, I saw the first copy of "Guns and Ammo" magazine i ever saw. On the cover was a picture of a Smith & Wesson Model 19, 357 "COMBAT MAGNUM." I remember thinking, "That's what a handgun is supposed to look like."
It still is.
My first handgun was a Model 19 (not this one). I put thousands of rounds of 38 through it. Not too many .357's I admit. But man that gun was a shooter. I haven't shot this one but a few rounds, but it seems to cut from the same cloth.
It still is.
My first handgun was a Model 19 (not this one). I put thousands of rounds of 38 through it. Not too many .357's I admit. But man that gun was a shooter. I haven't shot this one but a few rounds, but it seems to cut from the same cloth.
Requesting advise on
I've followed this thread and appreciate the advise. However, I received some .357 mag reloads from a friend. (180 gr. SWC with 12.0 gr. Alliant 2400). Is this a safe load to use in my Mod 66 4" and Service Six 2-3/4" revolvers? I have stayed away from the lighter .357 mag loads, and typically shoot .38 special. Thanks in advance for advise.
I've followed this thread and appreciate the advise. However, I received some .357 mag reloads from a friend. (180 gr. SWC with 12.0 gr. Alliant 2400). Is this a safe load to use in my Mod 66 4" and Service Six 2-3/4" revolvers? I have stayed away from the lighter .357 mag loads, and typically shoot .38 special. Thanks in advance for advise.
The number of 19s observed with damaged barrels is relatively small. They don't all fail and there is no set number at which failure can be predicted. I have never heard of a stainless 66 failing, and strangely, I have also never heard of the 65 (the fixed sight 357 K frame) failing so I suspect the problem lies with a small number of 19s specifically and not with the concept of a K frame 357 in general.
I made this topic #75.
-----------------------
K Frame S&Ws with .357 Magnum ammo?
75. There are many stories about Model 19s cracking the forcing cones. Actual guns observed failing in this fashion are relatively few. But it does happen. One police armorer stated that he saw a number of such failures and noted that all of the guns were dirty. His theory is that accumulated carbon deposits can create “hot spots” that may damage the barrel upon firing (so keeping the barrel spotlessly clean might eliminate the problem). He observed that several of the guns failed using 158 grain 357 ammo and one M19 cracked from using .38 Special ammo which sort of undermines the popular belief that it is the hot 125 grain loads causing the problem. I have noticed that a large percentage (maybe most) of the failed guns were 19-5s. These were crush-fit barrels rather than the earlier pinned models. I suspect that these new barrels were often defective in material or installation, causing the cracking. I have a 2.5” M19-3 made in 1970 and carried by a federal officer for 18 years. When I bought it, he said it had never been fired with anything other than 125 grain full Magnum loads and that’s all I shoot in it. So far, no problems.
I made this topic #75.
-----------------------
K Frame S&Ws with .357 Magnum ammo?
75. There are many stories about Model 19s cracking the forcing cones. Actual guns observed failing in this fashion are relatively few. But it does happen. One police armorer stated that he saw a number of such failures and noted that all of the guns were dirty. His theory is that accumulated carbon deposits can create “hot spots” that may damage the barrel upon firing (so keeping the barrel spotlessly clean might eliminate the problem). He observed that several of the guns failed using 158 grain 357 ammo and one M19 cracked from using .38 Special ammo which sort of undermines the popular belief that it is the hot 125 grain loads causing the problem. I have noticed that a large percentage (maybe most) of the failed guns were 19-5s. These were crush-fit barrels rather than the earlier pinned models. I suspect that these new barrels were often defective in material or installation, causing the cracking. I have a 2.5” M19-3 made in 1970 and carried by a federal officer for 18 years. When I bought it, he said it had never been fired with anything other than 125 grain full Magnum loads and that’s all I shoot in it. So far, no problems.
adman- Most here will advise you to NEVER shoot anyone else's reloads. I blew up a Colt New Service in 45 Colt shooting some reloads given to me by a friend whom I believed was careful. Three of the rounds were double-charged and I fired one in the gun.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
I'm still trying to break or wear out my 1970'ish 6" Model 19.
All it has ever had shot in it is .38 Spl +P handloads & .357 handloads consisting of a 140 grain Sierra or Hornady JHP over 14.5 grains of 2400 for about 1,250 FPS.
Finally gave up on wearing out the Model 19 and started in on a 4" Model 66 with the same loads.
Seems very unlikely I will live long enough to harm either one of them though.
BTW: Todays .357 Mag ammo is kinder & gentler then it was during the Model 19 & 66's height of popularity in police holsters.
SAAMI dropped the pressure limit from 40,000 to 35,000 years ago.
rc
All it has ever had shot in it is .38 Spl +P handloads & .357 handloads consisting of a 140 grain Sierra or Hornady JHP over 14.5 grains of 2400 for about 1,250 FPS.
Finally gave up on wearing out the Model 19 and started in on a 4" Model 66 with the same loads.
Seems very unlikely I will live long enough to harm either one of them though.
BTW: Todays .357 Mag ammo is kinder & gentler then it was during the Model 19 & 66's height of popularity in police holsters.
SAAMI dropped the pressure limit from 40,000 to 35,000 years ago.
rc
In my 30+ years of handgunning, I have yet to see a sot loose issue with the 19/66. Local department had some with 22,000 recored rounds thru them. Officers were still shooting the same handguns in competition and on duty. None had gripes with depending on them.
Myself, I've shot one S&W 19 a recorded 7120 rounds of mostly full load 125 JHPs. Got a 66 with only around 4000 through it. It's not broke in yet!
Myself, I've shot one S&W 19 a recorded 7120 rounds of mostly full load 125 JHPs. Got a 66 with only around 4000 through it. It's not broke in yet!
Specialized
Member
I just recently picked up a like-new 66, no lock and with a 2.5" barrel. I've been looking for one for ages, because I believe it's the best-looking snubbie i've ever seen. I love the way they feel and shoot! As for concealment, I have a 442 (pre-lock, .38 Special only) and a 60 for carry purposes. I would wear a 66 as a duty sidearm if a revolver were called for though, because it's my all-time favorite revolver.
Specialized
Specialized
OldCavSoldier
Member
Also, the Smiths have the side plate that the Rugers do not have. No side plate means that there is no "torque" placed on the frame during recoil, like there is with a side-plate frame........
Just my opinion...........
OldCavSoldier
Member
so noble of you!! (can I get in on this?)
surfinUSA
Member
Just a little history and decide for yourself. The K frame magnums were made for 25 years before the introduction of the L frame magnums. The K frame magnums (13/65, 19/66) remained in production 25 years after the introduction of the L frame magnum (which was introduced to compete with the similar looking python not because of a K frame weakness).
Its safe to believe that if the gun that became the police standard (the K frame magnum) had a real problem it would have never lasted as long as it did (50 years). Regardless of curent S&W marketing BS. The reality is that it is more economical to produce only one mid frame magnum (the L frame) rather than two (the K and L).
Keep in Mind even the little J frames are now available in 357 mag (both stainless and scandium models).
Not to bad mouth the L frame. I found it more comfortable to shoot than my N frame model 27. So the 27 was sold to finance a shotgun.
Its safe to believe that if the gun that became the police standard (the K frame magnum) had a real problem it would have never lasted as long as it did (50 years). Regardless of curent S&W marketing BS. The reality is that it is more economical to produce only one mid frame magnum (the L frame) rather than two (the K and L).
Keep in Mind even the little J frames are now available in 357 mag (both stainless and scandium models).
Not to bad mouth the L frame. I found it more comfortable to shoot than my N frame model 27. So the 27 was sold to finance a shotgun.
cyclopsshooter
Member
Ok, about the side plate issue. As I understand it the frame does not "warp" it "stretches" at the top strap resulting in end shake. Rugers do not have side plates because the Ruger revolvers are made of cast steel vs. the Smith's forged steel- I am not saying that Rugers are weaker than Smiths but the differences in materials cause a difference in manufacturing. The Ruger frames are bulkier and side plate free because of this. Overall I would say the two are similar in strength... except for the superior Smith trigger 
Confederate
Member
S&W tried to make a big deal out of its forged frame, dissing Ruger in the process. Back then, you didn't go after rival companies unless you were number two and trying to catch up to number one. I don't believe that was the case, and this ad raised many eyebrows. It's a remarkably good ad, but misleading, for as strong as the 686s were, the Rugers were still stronger.
Those of us who were put off by Ruger's dropping of the Security-/Speed-Six series of revolvers couldn't help but see the irony. S&W added weight and bulk to make their .357s stronger. Ruger really didn't need to do it. Many outdoorsmen still preferred the lighter Security-Sixes, and here tubby was calling fatty obese!
In the end, forged steel didn't make the 66 anywhere near as strong as the Security-Six; neither did it make the 686 stronger than the GP-100. But both of these guns were just more than what most campers and hikers wanted to haul out in the wilderness. For me, the ad just made me want a chocolate malt and a steak.
I'd keep my Security-Sixes!
Those of us who were put off by Ruger's dropping of the Security-/Speed-Six series of revolvers couldn't help but see the irony. S&W added weight and bulk to make their .357s stronger. Ruger really didn't need to do it. Many outdoorsmen still preferred the lighter Security-Sixes, and here tubby was calling fatty obese!
In the end, forged steel didn't make the 66 anywhere near as strong as the Security-Six; neither did it make the 686 stronger than the GP-100. But both of these guns were just more than what most campers and hikers wanted to haul out in the wilderness. For me, the ad just made me want a chocolate malt and a steak.
I'd keep my Security-Sixes!
- Status
