Modern Point Shooting

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Mar 13, 2003
Messages
1,263
Location
NYC
Many are critical of the Applegate/Fairbairn approach, since it ignores much of what is being taught today.
While that is open to debate, it finally dawned on me that it makes no sense to teach point shooting via a method that turns off those who I am trying to convince.
After teaching at a 2005 IALEFI ATC--and reading the class review notes-- I realized that point shooting is a concept--a concept which can work hand in hand with the modern approach to combat shooting.
Hence the new outline which I now use:



TACTICAL POINT SHOOTING
.

1) Explain how point shooting is nothing more than a concept.
The concept of placing a burst of bullets--from any angle and position--into the exact spot that one’s eyes are focused upon. This also may eventually lead to the more descriptive title of Target or Threat Focused Shooting.
Give a brief history of Fairbairn/Applegate/Sykes, etc so as to show its proven track record. But also explain that we are going to blend this with some of the more conventional shooting concepts as well as using point shooting with the SOP shooting methods employed by tactical teams…such as two handed shooting, the use of SUL, compressed ready and from the holster. Also stress that point shooting is meant to compliment--NOT REPLACE--sighted shooting skills.

2) Aimed Fire Drills.
Have students start at about 7 yards with two handed aimed fire from whatever low ready position they prefer. Have them aim for the upper chest.
Have them shoot in two round bursts on each blow of the whistle, doing a speed reload when necessary.
Have them reload and holster after running through two magazines.

3) HOLSTER DRILL.
Repeat the drill from the holster at about 5 yards.
On each blow of the whistle have them come up to a two handed aimed fire position and shoot two rounds.


4) Two Handed Point Shooting Drills.

Begin from low ready while in the square stance. Have them focus on a dot/letter/circle in the COM area.
On the whistle have them come up and fire one shot. Explain the need for a slight pause both before and after the shot. If necessary have them count to three before coming back down to low ready.
Repeat until empty.
Show the hits on the targets and ask them if there is a big accuracy difference between aimed and point shooting? Actually they will probably be in the same group area.
Now repeat the drill with two shot bursts. Explain that there is no need for resetting the trigger, looking for the sights, hammer, etc.
All one needs to do is focus on the spot one wishes to hit, grip the handgun tightly and fire the shots as fast as one can pull the trigger.
After one or two magazines have them repeat the drill with one foot forward, with the back heel raised.
Explain that one will normally be shooting with one foot forward and show why having at least one heel raised aids in movement and aggression.
Finish up drill with some 3-6 round bursts.
Then repeat the drills with the weak foot forward.

5) Explain the importance of shooting while moving in.
Have them shoot while moving in and then backwards, starting at the 7 yard line.
Repeat drill from the students favored ready position.

6) Body/Head drill.
Explain how the hands follow the eyes. Show how to make head shots by just changing your focus from the chest to the head.
Do it stationary from the 5 yard line, then while on the move from the 7 yard line. Also mention the advantages of focusing on the open mouth when making head shots ( Vital spot, gives some leeway for the shot going slightly high/low and how it was/is used by the S.A.S.)

7) SUL.
Ask how many use SUL during SWAT training/work.
Go over how it was used by the SAS--and why--long before it was ever given a name. Explain it’s strong points--allowing large numbers of officers to move while in close proximity, easy to run quickly when so held, weapon retention and very hard for the officer to put his finger on the trigger until on target, etc..
Practice two handed point shooting from Sul from about 5 yards. Drill should first done standing and then in motion.

8) Explain Eric Haney’s background in Delta Force and why they trained to shoot for the upper chest. Then show the failure to stop drill…chest-jugular notch-head in a rapid fire non stop motion.


9)) Multiples.
Show the standard stand and deliver method and its shortcomings.
Then explain how we move into each target for each bad guy--which is especially useful in a tactical team environment. Do drills from low ready, SUL and whatever ready position they feel most comfortable with.


10) Pivot Shots.
Explain how there are no set methods of footwork when engaging targets from the flanks. The concept--turn the body while raising the gun and firing when the eyes lock on the target--is the important thing.
Have them practice with just fingers to get a feel of the motions. Show how turning and shooting while moving in greatly enhances accuracy.
Do live fire drills from low/preferred/SUL while line is facing the targets at a 45 degree angle.

11) In Quartata Drill.
Moving backwards at a 45 degree angle.
key is to bring the left foot behind the right when going to the right and vice versa when going to the left.

12) Marching Drill.
This is both an excellent drill as well as the simplest method of teaching pivot/angle shots. The real key is to move in after the first shot (or ASAP) which tends to improve accuracy and lends itself to the aggressive spirit.
Show how sometimes we blow the whistle with the left foot forward, other times with the right foot forward and how to create stress by making it unpredictable as to when the whistle will blow.
Let them mix up regarding ready positions so as to allow all three…low/preferred/SUL…ready positions during the drill.


13) Explain the limitations of two handed shooting, such as locking up the body while doing a search, exposing too much when using cover, difficulty in disarming and that much police work involves using the off hand to hold a radio, flashlight, etc, etc.
Show how to make a firm one hand grip and then teach the basic one handed Fairbairn/Applegate drill.
Follow up by repeating drill # 5 with one hand.

14) Show how to do a one handed draw stroke into point shoulder position.

15) Talk about the importance of hip shooting and first show how to do it from the Appleagate low ready position. Also show how this can be done from SUL
Then demo elbow up/elbow down. Show how a zipper and head shots can be made from the half hip shooting position. Also show how multiple targets can easily be engaged from this position.

15) Shooting through the Draw Stroke.
Teach rapid firing from half hip and zippering up head shots are being made from point shoulder.

16) Retention Shooting.
Show various options and why this course will teach the 90 degree method.


17) Moving In All Directions.
Start out by moving right side I.Q. and going back-forward-left I.Q.-forward until pistol runs dry. Make sure that all shooting is being without a pause.
Then practice the “putting it all together drill” Start by striking the target and moving backwards, shooting from close hip until head shots are being made via point shoulder.


18) S and Figure 8 Drill.
Explain these drills importance and have students do them from a variety of ready positions or from the holster.


19) Low Light Concepts.
Explain how point shooting allows one to shoot in dim light and how there is usually some light that can help you see/identify the target.
Then practice the drills listed in KOGK

20) Quickie Course.
Show how to teach point shoulder from within a booth and with extremely limited time/ammo.
 
Last edited:
2 questions

Why do you say there is no need to reset the trigger?

Why focus on the mouth for headshots?
 
1) Just something else to think about.
One can shoot fast and accurate without resetting the trigger.
(As long as the student is not throwing his finger off the trigger with each shot then I leave him alone.)
As I tell my students: it's 3A.M. and you just shot a bad guy once.
He is closing in fast and is 5 feet away..
Are you going to reset the trigger--or just pull it as fast as possible to ensure accuracy?
Your choice.

2) I learned this from Phil Singleton of early SAS fame
Hit the spot and it's lights out.
( A NYPD cop was recently shot in the open mouth at close range with a .45.
He dropped liked a rock and was dead on the spot with a severed spinal cord)
Too high and it is still a hit.
Too low and it is still and effective hit.
 
Last edited:
Quick follow up question ref: reset.

Is this your belief (no need to reset) for all shooters or just new shooters in your program?
 
I have never taught any shooter how to reset the trigger--be it advanced or beginner.
Just as I have never taught anyone how to move their feet.
Or how to pivot/turn.
Why?
Because these are natural motions that nearly everyone will figure out for themselves.
Only once--in 25 years of teaching-- have I seen a shooter not allow the trigger to go forward the proper amount for a repeat shot--and that was on a .38 revolver.
As I said, 99% of all shooters will bring the trigger forward the proper amount without any prodding by an instructor, so why clutter their mind with an unnecessary--and possibly distracting--item?
If you disagree then we will have to agree to disagree and move on.
( The last thing I will be dragged into is a "Reset or no Reset" controversy.)
 
Do you emphasize and encourage the use of the peripheral vision when indexing on target?

I ask because I never see this mentioned in any point shooting text I encounter outside of what I have read from Jim Cirrillo. While it's been awhile since I've looked at the text, I don't recall Fair/Apple text specifically addressing use of the periphery, which, imo, is their intention upon presentation.


While it seems obvious, I would think that some shooters may simply learn this on their own as they go, rather than to consider and apply it from the start.
 
No, I teach total target focus.
As did Applegate--whom I knew quite well and was one of his many students.
IMHO peripheral vision is just something else to clutter up the student's mind.
 
Fair enough.

I would have liked to have known the Colonel as I bet he was a hoot to shoot the breeze with.

I have been fortunate to have grown up around, and known many, good ol' fashioned hard ass men that wouldn't hesitate to give you a good swift kick in the arse when you needed it, or the shirt off their back if you needed it.

I imagine he would be similar.
 
Why should we teach trigger reset? Because trigger control, which includes trigger reset, is an important marksmanship fundamental. In my expereince shooters may or may not learn to keep constant contact with the trigger, but very few pick up on trigger rest. To me, and many others, learning trigger reset leads to much better shooting (accuracy and speed-wise) in shooters. If you choose not to teach it; good for you. I view it as a vital skill and devote time to it in each class I teach. BTW, I didn't know there was a trigger reset controversy.

When it comes to aiming for the open mouth, I think thats a poor target area. I know of quite a few people that have taken shots to the mouth area and none of them dropped like a sack of potatoes. While you can hit the spine; it is an extremely narrow target and as a result; is hard to hit. A better target area is the occular band aka the "sniper T". It is in this region that the shooter stands a greater chance of hitting something of substance (the brain) and bringing the fight to an end.

I'm well aware of who Singleton is. He has had a huge influence on how we do dynamic stuff in my agency. While he does have an impresive history, like Haney and others, things do evolve for the better over time.
 
Last edited:
7) SUL.
Ask how many use SUL during SWAT training/work.
Go over how it was used by the SAS--and why--long before it was ever given a name. Explain it’s strong points--allowing large numbers of officers to move while in close proximity, easy to run quickly when so held, weapon retention and very hard for the officer to put his finger on the trigger until on target, etc..
Practice two handed point shooting from Sul from about 5 yards. Drill should first done standing and then in motion

SUL ? Really?

do you know the origins of this position?

and retention?????? Retention from SUL is a joke.

whats SUL going to give a SWAT team that inside ready wont?

and whats it going to give a CCW holder at all ?????
 
If that was a man and not a torso defeating that SUL position would be easy.
what he is showing isnt retention, its shooting. Retention would be defending against a struggle over the gun. Wether that be a gun grab or actual disarm.
From there I think retention position would serve him much better, and he in fact rolls into it (sort a) in order to get some of those shots off.
 
7) SUL.
Ask how many use SUL during SWAT training/work.
Go over how it was used by the SAS--and why--long before it was ever given a name. Explain it’s strong points--allowing large numbers of officers to move while in close proximity, easy to run quickly when so held, weapon retention and very hard for the officer to put his finger on the trigger until on target, etc..
Practice two handed point shooting from Sul from about 5 yards. Drill should first done standing and then in motion.
Mr. Temkin, can you elaborate here? I like Sul from a practical standpoint, but am curious about its origins, and its advantages beyond simply being an easier way to point the weapon in a safe direction in close quarters.
 
"Looking over your shoulder"

Matthew Temkin:

No, I teach total target focus.
As did Applegate--whom I knew quite well and was one of his many students.
IMHO peripheral vision is just something else to clutter up the student's mind.

I was a firearms instructor for one of the largest police departments in the Southeast U.S. and I commend you for your thoughtful approach to firearms instruction - I picked up a few pointers myself.

While I agree on the body of your work there are just a few things I may disagree with. If you are teaching a novice combat shooter and you have budget/time constraints then as a practical matter and not one of the greatest concern for the novice you pretty much have no choice but to teach total target focus. I have faced those constraints and had to deal with them in that manner. However, when additional budget money was allocated we began to add to the officers' skills through our in-service training programs.

In the great majority of police shootings there is only a single threat and if there were multiple threats they were usually in the same proximity (in the "tunnel" view).

There were, however, several police shootings where there were threats in the periphery that the officer(s) missed that resulted in great harm or death to the officer(s). So we set up a training scenario that made this quite evident. Of the sixty men that participated in the first presentation only two "survived" the course. The two that survived the course had been involved in situations with peripheral threats and had "seen the elephant".

From my personal experience as a Marine in Nam and as a police officer I was able to survive by being aware of my total environment because I saw may elephants in Nam and several in this country. It is far better to learn about peripheral threats in a training situation than to be introduced to it under actual confrontation for the first time.
 
I first read about SUL in a magazine where a SWAT trainer was teaching a class in Portugal and told the class to point the gun in a safe direction.
They pointed in down and the word SUL ( south in Portagese) was heard.
My Swedish police friend's SWAT team trained with Mel Perry of the SAS who told them that was now termed SUL was used by them in the 1970's when operating in Northern Ireland.
It was used as a retention method when running through the streets during operations.
I trained with Mel Perry's partner--Phil Singleton--who taught us SUL when operating in groups during room clearing.
My street cop friends like SUL when multiple officers are pulling up on a hot scene so as to keep muzzles from being waved around.
SUL is , as Mel Perry stated, very good when running with a drawn handgun.
SUL is very similar to the NRA's Law Enforcement Division safety circle concept, which I learned at a seminar a few years back.
IMHO SUL is most applicable to the police officer as opposed to the private citizen.
 
NoAlibi, thanks for the kind words.
By total target focus I mean not using the sights/gun's outline whatsoever.
Being aware of one's surroundings is always very important.
 
Last edited:
...a bit misleading

I never cease to be amazed at how many people will purport range tactics as being applicable to real life defensive, or offensive, scenarios. This is meant at no one in particular, but everyone must strive to not quote the latest magazine article or what works well on the range as worthy of a combat tactic.

At the risk of upsetting half of the people on THR, there is zero basis for teaching a total target focus or variation of the point shooting technique. Aimed fire will score hits without fail, and pointed fire will score hits if you are lucky. There are many variables to this but in it's most simplistic form, line up the sights with the target offered or selected and press the trigger. You will hit. While you may score hits with relative success on the range in a point shooting method, the dynamics of a real world threat are such that your bodily mechanisms are degraded and that weapon you are so good with on the range is no longer the extension of your arm that you thought it was. Let me be clear, I am not advocating that you extend your weapon to a target one foot in front of you. While often confused, shooting from the hip or a lower than extended position is not "point shooting" at this range. It is contact or near contact shooting. Point shooting is the failure to use your sights when beyond gun grabbing distance.

On another note, there are very few limitations to the two-handed hold. As a police officer or armed citizen, the item in your non-firing hand is either going to be dropped as proven in incident after incident, or the necessity of it being retained will almost always still allow for the use of that hand in support of the firing hand. While I would never deny the value of a flashlight, even in low-light conditions with a flashlight already in hand, that light is rarely used to illuminate the target. In fact, there are very few scenarios in which you would find yourself in such a dark environment that the target and sights could not be readily ascertained to obtain a viable sight picture/sight alignment. Yes, those situations exist, but they are rare. Take this situation of a police officer. As a vehicle is approached after a stop the flashlight in hand is used to illuminate the interior of the vehicle. However, the vehicle and occupants would likely still be visible without the light. This does not however diminish the importance of the flashlight. If the light illuminates a threat requiring you draw and fire, I would put forward that even if you were to drop the light you would still be able to see your sights and the threat from that point on more than well enough to engage.

A two-handed hold does not expose you from cover any more than a one-handed hold, at least not to any significant degree. Likewise, there is no reason to switch to the "weak side" when leaning out from the opposite side of cover. While there may be a very minimal additional exposure (almost negligible actually) the ability to put fast and accurate shots on target outweighs any reduction in exposure. Using one hand or the weak side will increase your exposure time and decrease accuracy. Not a good trade off. As a demonstration lean into view from the side of a mirror in each of those three stances (strong side supported, weak side supported, and one handed). You will notice very little difference in exposure. However, you should agree that you will be faster and more accurate with a two handed hold, more than overcoming that extra 1/2 to 1" of exposure from cover. All of this is only exacerbated in a threatening incident.

You should use caution when teaching to aim for a specific point on the target, whether it is the mouth, upper chest, etc. The dynamics of a real world scenario will rarely, if ever, provide you with the opportunity to shoot at a pre-determined point. The opponent's intentional or accidental (such as running between cars or in the woods) use of cover will dictate the placement of your shots. You should always aim center mass at the target offered (what is exposed) or selected (by you). In many cases an officer has failed to shoot because the chest of a perp was not exposed, when a valid target of the legs were exposed beneath a vehicle. Obviously, this would not be the pre-determined point chosen, but it is what was offered by the opponent. Just this situation, which is more of the norm than the exception, is yet another valid reason for not relying on the point shooting method.

There is one more glaring reason to not exercise the total target method. You must always assume that more than one shot will be fired, at more than one aggressor. Many years as a police officer and military tactician have indicated that threats rarely come in singular form. When you exercise a total sight focus you are in effect inducing the tunnel syndrome and ignoring 50% or more of the potential threats. Arguably, tunnel vision is difficult, if not impossible to overcome as you are actually pulling the trigger on a threat, but you can lessen its effects and minimize its duration. By maintaining a total environmental awareness in the series of events leading up to the situation you will still have at least a basic awareness of what is going on as you put rounds on target. Then, the moment the initial threat has been dealt with you shall immediately break your focus and re-establish that environmental awareness, assessing additional threats. In this manner, tunnel vision is reduced to one or two seconds. However, if you exercise a total target focus you are simply increasing the dangerous effect of tunnel vision.

I could go on, and I'm sure I will later, but that's my piece for now.

Be aware. Shoot accurately.

Joshua Scott
www.FrontSightFocus.org
 
Last edited:
Jscott--point shooting is hardly a range proven technique.
It has been proven effective in actual firefights for decades.
From Fairbairn & Sykes, to Rex Applegate ( whose books were republished by the USMC in 1990) during WW2, to the SAS, to the original Delta Force (as described by Eric Haney) to a host of other agencies past and present.
The Mass State Police under Lt. Mike Conti has included point shooting since 2000 and is reporting excellent results with point shooting.
As well as the California Hwy Patrol.
As well as the Akron OH PD.
If you feel that one handed shooting is unnecessary then by all means ignore it.
If you feel that the sights can always be used except at kissing distance, then more power to you.
I am glad that you have found something that has worked for you in combat, but there are many combat veterans out there who preach the need for aimed fire, point shooting as well as shooting with two hands, strong hand only and weak hand only.
The Sig sauer Academy offers quite a few point shooting courses, such as http://www.sigsaueracademy.com/Courses/ShowCourseDetails.aspx?cid=204&ccid=24
As does the nearby Smith & Wesson Academy: http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...langId=-1&parent_category_rn=21805&training=Y
You are entitled to your opinions, but the good people of THR should be aware that some very BTDT people will take umbrage some of those.
Which is why the wise student should do the research and decide for himself.
In fact, here is an illustrated home study course that I wrote several years ago:http://kilogulf59.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=handgun&action=display&thread=114
 
Last edited:
I have seen many agencies bigger and better than those you listed teaching and employing idiotic tactics but it doesn't make it right. Perhaps the prevalence of such techniques is a major contributor to the pathetic hit ratio of today's officers.

As for the Marine Corps condoning point shooting. No way, huh uh, no how. I personally set the Marine Corps military police shooting record in 1995 at Ft. McClellan, AL, (class 3-96 graduating Feb 05, '96 if anyone feels the need to verify) and went on to a 5th award rifle, 5th award pistol expert USMC. By the way, I was a Marine Corps firearms instructor for USCincPac, military police, SRT, counter-intel, and a couple units I can't even mention. The idea of point shooting as a Marine Corps standard is beyond comprehension. From day one in boot camp sight alignment, sight picture, press is preached and drilled into the recruit.

Can an individual Marine have their own viewpoint? Of course. Even famous ones. As a standard Marine Corps technique? No. Sight alignment, sight picture, press. That's what makes Marines the best shooters in the world.

It may be apparent that I am not impressed by big names. Means nothing to me. Some of the biggest names in the business have very little real world experience and their techniques fail outside of the range environment. Just because they have found a way to make a living doesn't make them right. Don't think it is beyond an individual or a school to teach a principle because there is a market for it and not because it is a valid technique. Have you seen some of the crap guns and gimmicks these companies are putting out? It is a business like any other. As long as they can find instructors to teach it and students to pay for it, the course will be offered. Does not make it a preferred technique.

You see, there is way too much range development being applied to real world scenarios. Instead, we need to take real world scenarios and develop our range training.

Here's what doesn't make sense. Point shooting advocates always say that officers overwhelmingly point shoot in actual combat and in the same breath of air quote hit ratios of 20%. So that's a scenario you want to duplicate? What kind of bass akwards thinking is that?

I'll align the sights and press the trigger thank you very much. By the way, just because I've kinda been posting right after you please don't take offense Matt. There's no personal attacks here. It's a discussion and I consider all input valid.

Be aware. Shoot accurately.

Joshua Scott
www.FrontSightFocus.org
 
Last edited:
No offense taken Jscott, as long as you stop pretending that what I have written comes from a range or sporting competition background.
( This, for example:"I never cease to be amazed at how many people will purport range tactics as being applicable to real life defensive, or offensive, scenarios"
It is a compulation of my 40 years training with a wide variety of military and police combat veterans, as well as my own experiences in unarmed and guns drawn situations.
This is where the misunderstanding lies:
[B]"Here's what doesn't make sense. Point shooting advocates always say that officers overwhelmingly point shoot in actual combat and in the same breath of air quote hit ratios of 20%. So that's a scenario you want to duplicate? What kind of bass akwards thinking is that?"

Officers do not point shoot in actual combat.
What happens is they often fail to use their sights (as they were taught) and send quite a few errant rounds down Main Street USA.
This is called MISSING!!!
Unless they were taught to point shoot ( and those who are taught tend to do very well with the method) then please do NOT say that they were point shooting.
"Perhaps the prevalence of such techniques is a major contributor to the pathetic hit ratio of today's officers."
Now who is being bassawkwards?
Agencies who teach point shooting are doing very well.
It is those who do not--and whose officers then fail to use the sights--who are having these issues.
Now if you want to discuss WHY they fail to use their sights then go right ahead.
I have my opinions on this and I am sure you do as well.
PS--the Marine Corp did republish KILL OR GET KILLED and ( I think) SHOOTING TO LIVE in 1990, with a forward by the chief of the Corps.
I never said it became policy but obviously they did so for a reason.
PS--here is a pdf version of the USMC edition
http://search.aim.com/search/search...et+killed&invocationType=tb50-ff-aim-ab-en-us
(Click in the 3rd item)
 
Last edited:
So you are saying that if you attempt to use your sights as you were trained but miss, point shooting would have increased the chances of a hit? Interesting.

I have seen people do things for more than 40 years and it still wasn't smart. Working with a lot of people doesn't make one an expert. Neither does training a lot of them. At best, it makes one experienced (not necessarily the right kind). At worst, it means a lot of people learned and are passing on a dangerous technique.

Be aware. Shoot accurately.

Joshua Scott
www.FrontSightFocus.org
 
Curious: Sykes and Fairbairn advocated point shooting to four yards, though, didn't they? No farther? And they accepted any hit in a burst of fire as good. For instance, firing four rounds and hitting once in the arm was good enough for them, wasn't it? (I read Shooting to Live too long ago to remember. Probably should dig it up once more...)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top