Molon what?
- Thread starter Amadeus
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Hmm. Not to stir it up or rain on anyone's parade, but I know a couple of Greek history fuds. Neither of them can come up with a documented source for that "alleged" quote. The internet is rife with quotes citing the phrase, "Molon Labe" as a rallying cry for RKBAer's, but can anyone cite the historical literary source. It's something that I've always been idly curious about, and I've sure got two Greek history scholars stumped.
Amadeus,
If you find a true 'book' source, please post it here. Years ago, I asked a person who was touted by several others as one of the world's top 5 Ancient Greek historians to quote the original text, and either he had a brainfart, or "there is no source". It could be that his personal library wasn't extensive enough, but that would really amaze me. He was quite surprised he couldn't find it, and we forgot to pursue it.
I'd love to go back and show him the source
.
Matt,
Thanks very much. Do you have volume, page, and line please? I'd really appreciate it. I've seen several books describing the battle, strategy, and betrayal, but never an exact quote.
If you find a true 'book' source, please post it here. Years ago, I asked a person who was touted by several others as one of the world's top 5 Ancient Greek historians to quote the original text, and either he had a brainfart, or "there is no source". It could be that his personal library wasn't extensive enough, but that would really amaze me. He was quite surprised he couldn't find it, and we forgot to pursue it.
I'd love to go back and show him the source
.Matt,
Thanks very much. Do you have volume, page, and line please? I'd really appreciate it. I've seen several books describing the battle, strategy, and betrayal, but never an exact quote.
horge
Member
from Plutarch, Apophthegmata Laconica
Пάλιν δὲ τοῦ Ξέρξου γράψαντος 'πέμψον τὰ ὅπλα' ἀντέγραψε 'μολὼν λαβέ'.
Пάλιν δὲ τοῦ Ξέρξου γράψαντος 'πέμψον τὰ ὅπλα' ἀντέγραψε 'μολὼν λαβέ'.
um, If by "Matt" you mean me, I deleted my post probably as you were replying. I was browsing through your post too fast and got the wrong meaning of it. I thought you were referring to the stand at Thermopylae, but you were obviously referring only to "the quote". I tend to agree with your friends, there isn't a direct reference to it in any classical Greek lit I know of. It is most likely Greek word-of-mouth folklore more than anything. But it sure makes a good story.
Horge,
Is that from "Plutarch's Lives"? My wife can read the text you typed, but not me. I'll ahve to wait til she gets home. Where'd you find it? (vol., p., line?)
Thank you.
Mal H,
UMMM. Yeah, I've got bifocals....they just don't work very well. Sorry, Mal H, yes, I meant to type your name. Duh.
Is that from "Plutarch's Lives"? My wife can read the text you typed, but not me. I'll ahve to wait til she gets home. Where'd you find it? (vol., p., line?)
Thank you.
Mal H,
UMMM. Yeah, I've got bifocals....they just don't work very well.
Sorry, Mal H, yes, I meant to type your name. Duh.The Dan in Black
Member
To MalH and Uglymofo.
Wouldn't the statue at Thermopylae be a documented source? MalH posted a picture on the thread about the correct spelling of Molon Labe.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=75208
I guess I don't exactly understand your question uglimofo. When I questioned a friend of mine who is from Greece about the story of Leonidias and the phrase he knew what I was talking about and mentioned being told the story in school.
- D
Wouldn't the statue at Thermopylae be a documented source? MalH posted a picture on the thread about the correct spelling of Molon Labe.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=75208
I guess I don't exactly understand your question uglimofo. When I questioned a friend of mine who is from Greece about the story of Leonidias and the phrase he knew what I was talking about and mentioned being told the story in school.
- D
horge
Member
Hi umofo,
Yes, "Lives".
But I'm not citing directly from it, but rather from a derivative collection (CD-ROM) of Laconisms, which isn't rigorous enough with regard to citations.
If you have a copy of the Plutarch on hand , well....
Good luck finding it in there.
The coarse translation of what I tried to cut-and-paste is
...to Xerxes message, "Hand over your arms,"
he answered back, "come and get them."
Try these in case my source cites erroneously;
------------
EDIT:
ERRATUM
The "Sayings of the Spartans" should instead be sought in Plutarch's "MORALS", in volume 3 (the Loeb Classical Library publcation).
or
"APOPHTHEGMATA GRAECA REGUM"
Henri Estienne's 1568 collection of Greek anecdotes (with facing Latin translations), drawn from Plutarch and Diogenes Laetius. Plutarch's texts include the Regum et imperatorum apophthegmata, Apophthegmata Laconica, Instituta Laconica, and Lacaenarum apophthegmata.
My sincerest apologies for any effort and/or time wasted.
-------------------
Yes, "Lives".
But I'm not citing directly from it, but rather from a derivative collection (CD-ROM) of Laconisms, which isn't rigorous enough with regard to citations.
If you have a copy of the Plutarch on hand , well....
Good luck finding it in there.
The coarse translation of what I tried to cut-and-paste is
...to Xerxes message, "Hand over your arms,"
he answered back, "come and get them."
Try these in case my source cites erroneously;
------------
EDIT:
ERRATUM
The "Sayings of the Spartans" should instead be sought in Plutarch's "MORALS", in volume 3 (the Loeb Classical Library publcation).
or
"APOPHTHEGMATA GRAECA REGUM"
Henri Estienne's 1568 collection of Greek anecdotes (with facing Latin translations), drawn from Plutarch and Diogenes Laetius. Plutarch's texts include the Regum et imperatorum apophthegmata, Apophthegmata Laconica, Instituta Laconica, and Lacaenarum apophthegmata.
My sincerest apologies for any effort and/or time wasted.
-------------------
Last edited:
Dan, what he is saying is that there seems to be no ancient Greek reference to Leonidas actually saying "Molon Labe". There is no doubt that the story is passed along and that many many people know it and believe it to be true. But, accounts of the quote are all relatively modern, including Plutarch (1st C. AD).
Dionysusigma
Member
Well, if it isn't officially historical (as far as ancient Greece is concerned), remember it as a quote a good gun forum uses.
All,
Yes, I'm looking for a literary source from the ancient text. Horge has quoted from an 'abridged' text, but at least now there's a possible source directory--"Plutarch's Lives", and Mal H has thrown another one out that may be of value, Herodotus. (I've packed all those ancient history books so many times, I can see the bindings. Little red books...hunerts of them. )
My impression is that "Plutarch's Lives" is a "standard" text amongst AG historians. I don't remember specifically looking at that book with the professor, but we've got a copy in a box somewhere. (I'm in the middle of a protracted move.) I'm sure my wife looked for it once for me, and translated the summary of the encounter at Thermopylae; I'm sure she didn't find a verbatim quote. When I unpack it for her I'll get her to read it again. Like you all said, "urban tale or no, it makes for a good story."
Incidentally, I was amazed to hear my wife's translation--it's no wonder the 300 lasted so long; to hear the recount, they could have fought "forever" if it weren't for the betrayal. One of those sources that detailed the pass gives the width of the pass as (if memory serves) "the width of an ox-cart and almost a half". She had to convert Greek measurements to something that carried a 'point of reference' in ancient times--anyway, no more than 20 ft. wide. What a dream defensive position.
Yes, I'm looking for a literary source from the ancient text. Horge has quoted from an 'abridged' text, but at least now there's a possible source directory--"Plutarch's Lives", and Mal H has thrown another one out that may be of value, Herodotus. (I've packed all those ancient history books so many times, I can see the bindings. Little red books...hunerts of them.
)My impression is that "Plutarch's Lives" is a "standard" text amongst AG historians. I don't remember specifically looking at that book with the professor, but we've got a copy in a box somewhere. (I'm in the middle of a protracted move.) I'm sure my wife looked for it once for me, and translated the summary of the encounter at Thermopylae; I'm sure she didn't find a verbatim quote. When I unpack it for her I'll get her to read it again. Like you all said, "urban tale or no, it makes for a good story."
Incidentally, I was amazed to hear my wife's translation--it's no wonder the 300 lasted so long; to hear the recount, they could have fought "forever" if it weren't for the betrayal. One of those sources that detailed the pass gives the width of the pass as (if memory serves) "the width of an ox-cart and almost a half". She had to convert Greek measurements to something that carried a 'point of reference' in ancient times--anyway, no more than 20 ft. wide. What a dream defensive position.
Standing Wolf
Member in memoriam
Close enough for me.
patentnonsense
Member
Plutarch is a pretty good source - he lived long after the events, but had access to many sources we don't have - and this was still very famous history even in Plutarch's time. However, Plutarch is a storyteller more than a scientist.
The correct spelling is with an omega before the nu; and BTW the pronunciation given on the TFL site is wrong - beta is a V in modern Greek, but was a real B in classical Greek.
There's a good Italian comment on quotes like this:
"Si non e vero, e ben trovato!"
(I.e. even if it's not accurate, it's still well said!)
The correct spelling is with an omega before the nu; and BTW the pronunciation given on the TFL site is wrong - beta is a V in modern Greek, but was a real B in classical Greek.
There's a good Italian comment on quotes like this:
"Si non e vero, e ben trovato!"
(I.e. even if it's not accurate, it's still well said!)
OK, so this thread really gets me interested and I go looking for Plutarch and Herodotus online. You know, to read a little myself. Follow those links, by the way, good stuff, and lots of it.
Apparently there is a novel about to be made into a movie about Thermopylae called Gates of Fire. The only information I could find is that it was to be directed by Michael Mann (Heat), so it should be good and was set ot be realeased in 2004. Some of the stars mentioned were Clooney and Willis. Not a fan of Clooney, so I hope that's not true.
Anybody else heard anything about this?
I really hope it gets made.
I apologize if this has been talked about before.
From the book:
"In 480 B.C. the forces of the Persian Empire under King Xerxes, numbering according to Herodotus two million men, bridged the Hellespont and marched in their myriads to invade and enslave Greece.
"In a desperate delaying action, a picked force of three hundred Spartans was dispatched to the pass of Thermopylae, where the confines between mountains and sea were so narrow that the Persian multitudes and their cavalry would be at least partially neutralized. Here, it was hoped, an elite force willing to sacrifice their lives could keep back, at least for a few days, the invading millions.
"Three hundred Spartans and their allies held off the invaders for seven days, until, their weapons smashed and broken from the slaughter, they fought 'with bare hands and teeth' (as recorded by Herodotus) before being at last overwhelmed.
"The Spartans and their Thespian allies died to the last man, but the standard of valor they set by their sacrifice inspired the Greeks to rally and, in that fall and spring, defeat the Persians at Salamis and Plataea and preserve the beginnings of Western democracy and freedom from perishing in the cradle.
"Two memorials remain today at Thermopylae. Upon the modern one, called the Leonidas Monument in honor of the Spartan king who fell there, is engraved his response to Xerxes' demand that the Spartans lay down their arms. Leonidas' reply was two words, Molon labe: " 'Come and get them.' "
Apparently there is a novel about to be made into a movie about Thermopylae called Gates of Fire. The only information I could find is that it was to be directed by Michael Mann (Heat), so it should be good and was set ot be realeased in 2004. Some of the stars mentioned were Clooney and Willis. Not a fan of Clooney, so I hope that's not true.
Anybody else heard anything about this?
I really hope it gets made.
I apologize if this has been talked about before.
From the book:
"In 480 B.C. the forces of the Persian Empire under King Xerxes, numbering according to Herodotus two million men, bridged the Hellespont and marched in their myriads to invade and enslave Greece.
"In a desperate delaying action, a picked force of three hundred Spartans was dispatched to the pass of Thermopylae, where the confines between mountains and sea were so narrow that the Persian multitudes and their cavalry would be at least partially neutralized. Here, it was hoped, an elite force willing to sacrifice their lives could keep back, at least for a few days, the invading millions.
"Three hundred Spartans and their allies held off the invaders for seven days, until, their weapons smashed and broken from the slaughter, they fought 'with bare hands and teeth' (as recorded by Herodotus) before being at last overwhelmed.
"The Spartans and their Thespian allies died to the last man, but the standard of valor they set by their sacrifice inspired the Greeks to rally and, in that fall and spring, defeat the Persians at Salamis and Plataea and preserve the beginnings of Western democracy and freedom from perishing in the cradle.
"Two memorials remain today at Thermopylae. Upon the modern one, called the Leonidas Monument in honor of the Spartan king who fell there, is engraved his response to Xerxes' demand that the Spartans lay down their arms. Leonidas' reply was two words, Molon labe: " 'Come and get them.' "
I'm almost positive "more accurate" sources listed Xerxe's army at around 10,000. That number actually makes sense, as that was the standing number for Xerxes' bodyguards. Not only were they bodyguard detail, but the elite of his forces. It would make sense that he rendered them against Greece first, as kind of an 'honor' unit, much like the Army sends the 82nd or 101st amongst all the accompanying hoopla. Rather a moot point though, as "Immortals" was the name given to the unit because they were replaced with able-bodied soldiers at their death, so in essence, an unending stream of soldiers. But two million is an extremely exaggerated number. Old braincells firing off wanna say the Persian army numbered something in the order of 40,000-50,000.
Damn, who knows who is supposed to have said this: "Good, then we can fight in the shade."
Was it Dionysius?? ARGH. I won't sleep tonight. Thanks, JD.
Damn, who knows who is supposed to have said this: "Good, then we can fight in the shade."
Was it Dionysius?? ARGH. I won't sleep tonight. Thanks, JD.
That was Dienekes. He is quoted by Herodotus.
Harry Tuttle
Member
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- Nov 14, 2003
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Battle of Thermopylae
480 BC
After the suppression of the Ionic revolt, king Darius started preparing an army to attack Greece.
The Persian expedition that followed under Mardonios ended in disaster, loosing his fleet in a terrible storm in the promontory of mount Athos. Darius was not disheartened and having in his court the tyrant Hippias, keeping alive his resentment against Athens, he started preparing a second expedition and on a larger scale. He first sent heralds to ask earth and water from the various Greek cities. The Athenians threw them in the barathron pit and the Spartans in a well, to find there their "earth and water".
For the first time the Greek cities, in the face of the imminent danger were all united, recognizing Sparta as the leader of Greece. Sparta refused to send an army to help Athens in Marathon and only arrived after the battle to find in their amazement that the Athenians had won a complete victory (490 BC). Greece was fortunate that the next invasion was led by the son of Darius, Xerxes, a much inferior man than his father.
On the arrival of Xerxes at Thermopylae, he found that the place was defended by a body of three hundred Spartans and about seven thousand hoplites from other states, commanded by the Spartan king Leonidas.
Xerxes learning about the small number of Greek forces and that several Spartans outside the walls were exercising and combing their hairs, in his perplexity, immediately called Demaratos to explain him the meaning of all these. Demaratos told him that the Spartans will defend the place to the death and it was custom to wash and dress their hairs with special care when they intended to put their lives in great danger. Xerxes who did not believe Demaratos, delayed his attack for four days, thinking that the Greeks as soon as they would realize his great forces will disperse._
He sent also heralds asking to deliver up their arms. The answer from Leonidas was "come and take them" (????? ????).
A Spartan, who was told about the great number of Persian soldiers, who with their arrows will conceal the sun, he answered:_ "so much the better, we will fight in the shade".
At the fifth day Xerxes attacked but without any results and with heavy losses, though the Medes fought bravely. He then ordered his personal guard_ the "Immortals" under Hyrdanes, a body of ten thousand consisting from the best Persian soldiers, to advance. They also failed and Xerxes was observed to jump from his throne three times in anger and agony. The following day they attacked, but again made no progress. Xerxes was desperate but his luck changed when a Malian named Ephialtes told him about a secret path across the mountain. Immediately a strong Persian force was sent with Hyrdanes, guided by the traitor. At day's break they reached the summit, where the Phokian army was stationed and who upon seeing the Persians fled.
When Leonidas learned all these incidents, he ordered the council of war to be summoned. Many were of the opinion that they should retire and find a better defendable place, but Leonidas, who was bound by the laws of Sparta and from an oracle, which had declared that either Sparta or a Spartan king must perish, refused. Three hundred Spartans and seven hundred Thespians took the decision to stay and fight. The rest were permitted to leave, with the exception of four hundred Boeotians, which were retained as hostages.Leonidas did not wait the Persian attack, which had being delayed by Xerxes and advanced in the path, he fell upon the Persians. Thousands of them were slain, the rest were driven near the sea, but when the Spartan spears broke, they started having losses and one of the first that fell was king Leonidas. Around his body one of the fiercest battles took place. Four times the Persians attacked to obtain it and four times they were repulsed. At the end, the Spartans exhausted and wounded, carrying the body of Leonidas, retired behind the wall, but they were surrounded by the enemy, who killed them with arrows.
On the spot, a marble lion was set by the Greeks in honor of Leonidas and his men, together with two other monuments near by. On one of them, the memorable words were written:
__________ "Oh stranger tell the Lacedaemonians, that we lie here,
___________ obedient to their laws".
http://www.legiontotalwar.com/sparta.htm
480 BC
After the suppression of the Ionic revolt, king Darius started preparing an army to attack Greece.
The Persian expedition that followed under Mardonios ended in disaster, loosing his fleet in a terrible storm in the promontory of mount Athos. Darius was not disheartened and having in his court the tyrant Hippias, keeping alive his resentment against Athens, he started preparing a second expedition and on a larger scale. He first sent heralds to ask earth and water from the various Greek cities. The Athenians threw them in the barathron pit and the Spartans in a well, to find there their "earth and water".
For the first time the Greek cities, in the face of the imminent danger were all united, recognizing Sparta as the leader of Greece. Sparta refused to send an army to help Athens in Marathon and only arrived after the battle to find in their amazement that the Athenians had won a complete victory (490 BC). Greece was fortunate that the next invasion was led by the son of Darius, Xerxes, a much inferior man than his father.
On the arrival of Xerxes at Thermopylae, he found that the place was defended by a body of three hundred Spartans and about seven thousand hoplites from other states, commanded by the Spartan king Leonidas.
Xerxes learning about the small number of Greek forces and that several Spartans outside the walls were exercising and combing their hairs, in his perplexity, immediately called Demaratos to explain him the meaning of all these. Demaratos told him that the Spartans will defend the place to the death and it was custom to wash and dress their hairs with special care when they intended to put their lives in great danger. Xerxes who did not believe Demaratos, delayed his attack for four days, thinking that the Greeks as soon as they would realize his great forces will disperse._
He sent also heralds asking to deliver up their arms. The answer from Leonidas was "come and take them" (????? ????).
A Spartan, who was told about the great number of Persian soldiers, who with their arrows will conceal the sun, he answered:_ "so much the better, we will fight in the shade".
At the fifth day Xerxes attacked but without any results and with heavy losses, though the Medes fought bravely. He then ordered his personal guard_ the "Immortals" under Hyrdanes, a body of ten thousand consisting from the best Persian soldiers, to advance. They also failed and Xerxes was observed to jump from his throne three times in anger and agony. The following day they attacked, but again made no progress. Xerxes was desperate but his luck changed when a Malian named Ephialtes told him about a secret path across the mountain. Immediately a strong Persian force was sent with Hyrdanes, guided by the traitor. At day's break they reached the summit, where the Phokian army was stationed and who upon seeing the Persians fled.
When Leonidas learned all these incidents, he ordered the council of war to be summoned. Many were of the opinion that they should retire and find a better defendable place, but Leonidas, who was bound by the laws of Sparta and from an oracle, which had declared that either Sparta or a Spartan king must perish, refused. Three hundred Spartans and seven hundred Thespians took the decision to stay and fight. The rest were permitted to leave, with the exception of four hundred Boeotians, which were retained as hostages.Leonidas did not wait the Persian attack, which had being delayed by Xerxes and advanced in the path, he fell upon the Persians. Thousands of them were slain, the rest were driven near the sea, but when the Spartan spears broke, they started having losses and one of the first that fell was king Leonidas. Around his body one of the fiercest battles took place. Four times the Persians attacked to obtain it and four times they were repulsed. At the end, the Spartans exhausted and wounded, carrying the body of Leonidas, retired behind the wall, but they were surrounded by the enemy, who killed them with arrows.
On the spot, a marble lion was set by the Greeks in honor of Leonidas and his men, together with two other monuments near by. On one of them, the memorable words were written:
__________ "Oh stranger tell the Lacedaemonians, that we lie here,
___________ obedient to their laws".
http://www.legiontotalwar.com/sparta.htm
El Cid
Member
My favorite battle and heroes!
Having read both Herodotus' THE STRUGGLE FOR GREECE and Gates of Fire I often wonder if such men could be found today in the age of guttless wonders and faint hearts.
Right now, troops are battleing it out in Iraq while appeasers wish to feed the crocodille in hopes it will eat them last.
The other Hero is of course, EL CID CAMPEDOR or Rodrigo de Bivar!
Having read both Herodotus' THE STRUGGLE FOR GREECE and Gates of Fire I often wonder if such men could be found today in the age of guttless wonders and faint hearts.
Right now, troops are battleing it out in Iraq while appeasers wish to feed the crocodille in hopes it will eat them last.
The other Hero is of course, EL CID CAMPEDOR or Rodrigo de Bivar!
I've been going through Book 7 of Herodotus. It's very interesting. The numbers are grossly exaggerated, I think.
A myriad is 10,000.
It would seem the whole army was 170 myraids or 1.7 million men.
He lists the names of generals and the countries they come from and the types of uniforms each country wore. Apparently, each nation the persians conquered had troops there. Interesting. Sort of a coalition of the unwilling.
However...
So, Xerxes shows up with, according to Herodotus, aprox. 5.2 million people of which 1.7 million are soldiers.
I don't think so.
Divide those number by 10? 520,000 and 170,000. 100? 52,000 and 17,000.
3:1. Does that ratio of support to combat sound right?
It looks like there were many small battles before the big one. Leonides sent some people away,including his own son, while preparing for their final stand. I really like this quote, choppy translation aside:
Again, choppy translation aside, IF I am reading this correctly, it means the Greeks claimed they fought 3,000,000 men with 4,000 (made up of spartans, their slaves, and soldiers from various other city states).
Can we assume the numbers were exaggerated up for the Persians and down for the Greeks? Or are the Greek number about right?
I think I will go through Plutarch tomorrow and see what I can find. I think I'll also be purchasing paper copies. Looks like I'm hooked.
I'd be interested in any historical accounts that give more accurate numbers and description of the battle. Can any one make any recommendations?
Not exactly a precise count.
A myriad is 10,000.
It would seem the whole army was 170 myraids or 1.7 million men.
He lists the names of generals and the countries they come from and the types of uniforms each country wore. Apparently, each nation the persians conquered had troops there. Interesting. Sort of a coalition of the unwilling.
However...
So, Xerxes shows up with, according to Herodotus, aprox. 5.2 million people of which 1.7 million are soldiers.
I don't think so.
Divide those number by 10? 520,000 and 170,000. 100? 52,000 and 17,000.
3:1. Does that ratio of support to combat sound right?
It looks like there were many small battles before the big one. Leonides sent some people away,including his own son, while preparing for their final stand. I really like this quote, choppy translation aside:
Then there is this, after the betrayal and the Spartan's defeat:
Again, choppy translation aside, IF I am reading this correctly, it means the Greeks claimed they fought 3,000,000 men with 4,000 (made up of spartans, their slaves, and soldiers from various other city states).
Can we assume the numbers were exaggerated up for the Persians and down for the Greeks? Or are the Greek number about right?
I think I will go through Plutarch tomorrow and see what I can find. I think I'll also be purchasing paper copies. Looks like I'm hooked.
I'd be interested in any historical accounts that give more accurate numbers and description of the battle. Can any one make any recommendations?
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