More BS from hospitals on carry in WI

[sturmruger]

My wife works in the medical field. The entire hospital that she works at was forwarded an email urging them to write our state Assembly person. I still can't believe the hospital admin can do this!! I guess all of this is originating out of the Wisconsin Hospital Association. They use some of the most screwed up logic I have ever seen.:banghead:

From: Liberal Activist
Sent: Wednesday November 23rd
To: All staff
Subject: HEAT Alert! Concealed Carry Exemption Needed!

To all Staff:

As you may know, the Wisconsin legislature is considering new concealed carry legislation. For safety reasons, we are urging them to exempt health care facilities from this legislation

Representative Kitty Rhoades sits on the Joint Finance Committee that will be voting on this bill next Wednesday, and direct communication from you - people who live and/or work in her - is very important. We hope you will take a few minutes to contact Representative Rhoades - by email, mail, or telephone - urge her to support an exemption for health care facilities from the concealed carry legislation.

Kitty Rhoades
Madison, WI


A sample letter is attached; this could be printed, signed and mailed OR cut and pasted into an email. You could also call the toll-free number to leave a message for Representative Rhoades. If you'd prefer, there are a stack of these letters at the front desk of the hospital; feel free to stop by and sign a letter, and I'll take care of getting them in the mail

Thank you for your help with this critical safety issue. If you have any questions please let me know.


Liberal Staffer

This is the WHA Position on Carry permits in WI from 2003

Wisconsin Hospital Association
5721 Odana Rd
P.O. Box 44992 Madison, WI 53744-4992
P (608.274.1820) F (608.274.8554) www.wha.org

In its current form, the Personal Protection Act (Assembly Bill 444 and Senate Bill 214) raises serious
doubts about the safety and security of Wisconsin residents at a time when they are potentially most
vulnerable – when seeking health care for themselves or loved ones. Though unintended, as drafted this
bill could cause more harm than good in Wisconsin’s hospitals.

Hospitals Should Be Off Limits for Concealed Weapons: The legislation recognizes a number of
facilities where carrying a licensed and concealed weapon is not appropriate, including police stations,
sheriff’s offices, state patrol stations, prisons, jails, courthouses, school administration buildings, airports,
taverns, and even large athletic facilities. WHA believes the absence of hospitals from this list is a
significant omission. AB 444/SB 214 should be amended to prohibit carrying concealed weapons into
hospitals.

Hospitals Contain Highly Combustible Materials: Unlike prisons, school administration buildings, or
any of the exempted facilities, highly flammable materials are always being used in hospitals. Oxygen
and other dangerous combustibles are routinely present and in use. Stray bullets, regardless of how well
intended, can easily ignite these materials and result in a catastrophe affecting the lives of every man,
woman and child in the hospital. An individual carrying a permitted concealed weapon who intervenes
when an armed, or unarmed, patient or visitor threatens another person could endanger others. Such a
situation involves dangers and variables that are best handled by hospital security and local law
enforcement. If guns do not belong in The Kohl Center, they certainly do not belong in a hospital.

A Non-Threatening Care Environment: Patients and families often face traumatic or emotionally
devastating situations. Compounding these difficult times by allowing guns in hospitals is both
unnecessary and counterproductive to the mission of a hospital. Patients require an atmosphere of safety
and an environment conducive to healing. Patients and their families will not be put at ease knowing a
food service employee carrying a gun may deliver their dinner or an orderly with a concealed weapon may
transport them for tests and procedures. Nor will they be comforted by the thought that visitors to the
patient next-door may be carrying guns. If guns do not belong in prisons, they do not belong in
hospitals.

If Not in Taverns, Why in Hospitals? An otherwise law-abiding citizen with a substance abuse problem,
or even under the influence of alcohol, might use a legally concealed weapon to demand access to
medications stored in hospitals. Nothing guarantees individuals with permits won’t present a threat,
endanger safety, or possibly exacerbate an already volatile situation in an environment where controlled or
intoxicating substances are present. If guns do not belong in taverns, they certainly do not belong in
hospitals.

Other States Exempt Hospitals: At least five states - Texas, Michigan, South Carolina, Wyoming and
Minnesota - specifically prohibit even those with a license from carrying concealed weapons in hospitals.
Legislation recently passed by both houses in Missouri also includes a hospital exemption. In addition, at
least ten other states with concealed carry laws allow private businesses to prohibit weapons on their
property by posting a notice. WHA urges you to amend AB 444 and SB 214 and prohibit carrying a
concealed weapon in health care facilities or, at the very least, allow facilities to set their own policies.

09/08/03(this was the old position paper, they are too lazy to write a new one for the bill proposed this year.)
2003 – 04 Position Paper
WISCONSIN HOSPITAL ASSOCIATION, INC.
http://www.wha.org/pubArchive/position_statements/ab444concealed9-03.pdf

 

[Standing Wolf]

I wonder whether any tax dollars end up in the hands of that organization. I wonder whether any tax-supported hospitals contribute dollars to that organization.

 

[sturmruger]

I am sure they do. The University of WI runs one of the biggest hospitals in the whole state! I am sure money is getting funneled that way somehow.

 

[cosmos7]

I thought Texas eliminated their hospital restriction... they now have to post 30.06's like everyone else.

 

[Standing Wolf]

I am sure they do. The University of WI runs one of the biggest hospitals in the whole state! I am sure money is getting funneled that way somehow.

If that's the case and it can be clearly demonstrated, I'd say it's time to bring in an assault lawyer—unless, of course, Wisconsin law provides for tax payer funding of political agitation.

 

[Old Dog]

Good luck with the fight in Wisconsin, Cheeseheads.

Here in Washington state, the law seems kind of weird sometimes ... it seems firearms are prohibited in facilities with behavioral/psychiatric/mental treatment (which is most decent-sized medical facilities). Many hospitals here have signs posted.

The hospital my wife works for specifically prohibits employees, even those with CPLs, from bringing firearms into the building. Of course, as we all know, comes often to your local urban emergency room an undesirable element. When my wife worked in a big city ER, she had stories every week of GSW patients arriving in handcuffs and guns being taken off both victims and the friends bringing the victims in, or gangbangers who had to drop in and check on their homeys (even possible attempts to finish the job once or twice) ... And the freakin' security in that hospital was unarmed ... the local PD often just let a pair of officers camp out at the ER on busy nights (and full moons) ...

Nurses, especially those who work nights and graveyard shifts, are often chosen as victims by predators, often have to make long walks to the parking garages and lots in the wee hours ... My wife and her buddies at one hospital she worked at pointed out to the hospital administration that if the hospital let the nurses pack, it'd free up the security guards from having to spend hours escorting staff to the parking lots and garages ... that proposal didn't fly, of course ...

 

[Ryder]

They need protection from relatives of their malpracitice victims.

 

[shaldag]

I wonder how the doctors feel? Many of them carry drugs in their medical bagfs that are highly sought after by criminals. I know a number of physicians who have CW permits for this reason. Hopefully those in WI WILL be writing their legislators about this.......

 

[Firethorn]

Wisconsin Hospital Association
5721 Odana Rd
P.O. Box 44992 Madison, WI 53744-4992
P (608.274.1820) F (608.274.8554) www.wha.org

In its current form, the Personal Protection Act (Assembly Bill 444 and Senate Bill 214) raises serious doubts about the safety and security of Wisconsin residents at a time when they are potentially most vulnerable – when seeking health care for themselves or loved ones. Though unintended, as drafted this
bill could cause more harm than good in Wisconsin’s hospitals.

I doubt this. As statistics have shown:
1: The people who want to do harm ignore all such rules
2: The people who bother to go through the process to obtain a permit a markably less likely to commit crimes than the general population, and even narrowly beat police officers

Hospitals Should Be Off Limits for Concealed Weapons: The legislation recognizes a number of facilities where carrying a licensed and concealed weapon is not appropriate, including police stations, sheriff’s offices, state patrol stations, prisons, jails, courthouses, school administration buildings, airports, taverns, and even large athletic facilities. WHA believes the absence of hospitals from this list is a significant omission. AB 444/SB 214 should be amended to prohibit carrying concealed weapons into hospitals.

You bring up a good point. I know of no reason why school buildings, much less pure administration ones, should be on the ban list. It's not like the kids can get permits, thus it'll only be adults having gone through the certification process carrying, and we know they're not a problem. The Airport restriction is a federal one. I also believe that neither Taverns or sporting events should be off limits. I think that the restriction should be on carrying while inebriated, not just visiting a place that sells alcohol.

Hospitals Contain Highly Combustible Materials: Unlike prisons, school administration buildings, or any of the exempted facilities, highly flammable materials are always being used in hospitals. Oxygen and other dangerous combustibles are routinely present and in use. Stray bullets, regardless of how well intended, can easily ignite these materials and result in a catastrophe affecting the lives of every man, woman and child in the hospital.

Technically oxygen is an accellerator, not a combustable. Anyways, tests have shown that bullets, especially those from handguns, generally lack the ability to set fires, or even spark fires.

An individual carrying a permitted concealed weapon who intervenes when an armed, or unarmed, patient or visitor threatens another person could endanger others. Such asituation involves dangers and variables that are best handled by hospital security and local law enforcement. If guns do not belong in The Kohl Center, they certainly do not belong in a hospital.

As I understand it, your hospital security is unarmed. I also hear that you lack metal detectors and do not search all persons entering the premises. Do you know that police have a higher rate for mistake shootings than CCW/defensive gun users?

As for the Kohl Center, I see no reason why they should ban firearms there.

A Non-Threatening Care Environment: Patients and families often face traumatic or emotionally devastating situations. Compounding these difficult times by allowing guns in hospitals is both unnecessary and counterproductive to the mission of a hospital. Patients require an atmosphere of safety
and an environment conducive to healing. Patients and their families will not be put at ease knowing a food service employee carrying a gun may deliver their dinner or an orderly with a concealed weapon may transport them for tests and procedures. Nor will they be comforted by the thought that visitors to the patient next-door may be carrying guns. If guns do not belong in prisons, they do not belong in hospitals.

I've been to hospitals where the doctors open carried 9mm's. I didn't feel threatened. After all it's for my safety. Besides, as they say, concealed means concealed. What's next, banning firearms at the grocery store so people can 'shop in peace' until a robber feels that it's an easy target?

etc. etc. etc.

 

[Janitor]

My wife and her buddies at one hospital she worked at pointed out to the hospital administration that if the hospital let the nurses pack, it'd free up the security guards from having to spend hours escorting staff to the parking lots and garages ... that proposal didn't fly, of course ...

So ... were the security guards at that hospital armed at least?

Victim dissarmament zones are 100% a bad idea. We take some of the places where we are most interested in people being protected (say ... the grade school where you just sent your seven year old daughter to spend the day) and make a point of publishing the fact that you have to be a law breaker to carry around there.

*sheesh*

It is just a bad idea.
-

 

[Janitor]

The Airport restriction is a federal one.

Actually, not true. There is no real restriction on carrying in a airport. Not in general at least. You cannot carry in the secured areas, but that's true in any federally secured area, not just airports.

If guns do not belong in prisons, they do not belong in hospitals.

I agree. Hospitals are just like prisons. Last time I saw somebody walk through a hospital while open carrying, at least twelve patients jumped up and tried to mug him for his piece. It was sickening - people on crutches - one guy even ripped out three IV tubes to get at that revo.

At the risk of repeating myself - *sheesh*
-

 

[shaldag]

Not to mention the fact that, in many US cities, hospitals are located in, to say the least, rather dangerous areas. Let me see: NYC, LA, Philly, Baltimore, Chicago, Denver, Boston are all cities in which major hospitals are located in neighborhoods where I personally would not feel safe without carrying.

 

[ChiefPilot]

At least five states - Texas, Michigan, South Carolina, Wyoming and
Minnesota - specifically prohibit even those with a license from carrying concealed weapons in hospitals.

This is false. Minnesota has no such rule.

 

[Janitor]

This is false. Minnesota has no such rule.

I missed that.

Yup. Here hospitals have to post if they only want criminals armed.
-

 

[halvey]

Wahhhhhhh!!! It's Minnesota all over again.

How about this: if you want to ban law abiding permit holders from carrying, put up a sign like in Minnesota.

 

[MechAg94]

I don't remember hosipitals being restricted in Texas. I'll have to check though.

 

[petrel800]

Hospitals Contain Highly Combustible Materials: Unlike prisons, school administration buildings, or
any of the exempted facilities, highly flammable materials are always being used in hospitals. Oxygen
and other dangerous combustibles are routinely present and in use. Stray bullets, regardless of how well
intended, can easily ignite these materials and result in a catastrophe affecting the lives of every man,
woman and child in the hospital. An individual carrying a permitted concealed weapon who intervenes
when an armed, or unarmed, patient or visitor threatens another person could endanger others. Such a
situation involves dangers and variables that are best handled by hospital security and local law
enforcement. If guns do not belong in The Kohl Center, they certainly do not belong in a hospital.

Translation, I'm a moron and I didn't pass physics in high school, but I did get my degree in physics at the AMC 32 jumbo theater. This is plain and simply somebody who knows absolutely nothing about combustibles and firearms. Definately the type of person we want to take suggestions from. She probably thinks that if you shoot a gun in a plane the whole tail will rip off and send the plane directly into the groud.

Refer her to this website for re-education on the fact that bullets don't spark when they make contact with items.

http://www.intuitor.com/moviephysics/

 

[scout26]

The WHA needs to call this the "Richard Speck" exemption ???

(I'm the husband of NICU RN who used to work at Hospital on the southside of Chicago).


I also enjoyed this: "If guns do not belong in prisons, they do not belong in hospitals."
Yep that's a great analogy. Hospitals=Prisons

I can definitely see the need for the guy delivering hospital food to the patients to be armed.
I, personally, would feel safer knowing that the guy pushing my gurney is armed and is ready to shoot it out with anyone trying to stop him.

Any suggestions on how to carry in a Hospital gown ??? (you know the ones that open back to front, with just the tie thing at the back of your neck, and your cheeks in the breeze.)

It also sounds like the Anti's have pretty much conceded that this is going to pass, and now they are just fighting over the verbiage.


Congrats Cheeseheads !!! One day common sense will filter down to Illinois.

 

[Monkeyleg]

It also sounds like the Anti's have pretty much conceded that this is going to pass, and now they are just fighting over the verbiage.

I don't think they've conceded, but I think they realize that we stand a much better chance this year than last year. And last year we only lost by a single vote.

I just wish the folks on our side would realize how much better our chances are this year than last.

Last year we had one professional lobbyist (NRA) working the legislators, while the hospital association had five. And I don't even know how many lobbyists there were from the universities, business groups, and other pro lobbyists representing groups opposed to the bill.

Each Cheesehead gun owner, though, is a lobbyist unto himself. A Senate vote is tentatively scheduled for next Tuesday. A tremendous turnout of supporters would go a long way toward victory.

 

[wdlsguy]

Hospitals must post 30.06 signs in Texas

Texas Penal Code § 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER.
...
(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person:
...
(4) on the premises of a hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or on the premises of a nursing home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, unless the license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing home administration, as appropriate;
...
(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

In other words, if a hospital isn't posted with 30.06 signs, concealed carry is legal.

 

[dpesec]

As I see itthe real issue here is one of mindset. We all complain, "the criminals won't pay attention to the signes'. Yes, this is true, but remember the people making the suggestions are, like us, normal law abiding people. This means, we follow the rules.
Now, remember the through process here, we wouldn't break the rules, so everybody thinks like that, so saying no weapons will make it so. The problem is most normal people can't think like a criminal. This is what we need to point out. I don't know how to get the message out, but IMHO that's what's needed.