More training needed

[feedthehogs]

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/localnews/content/south/epaper/2008/06/19/0619bbshoot.html

Thursday, June 19, 2008

BOYNTON BEACH, Fla.-Three police officers fired 23 shots at a van whose driver was allegedly trying to hit them after a burglary at CarMax this morning, the department said.

Seven people, five of them juveniles, were taken into custody. No one was struck by the shots.

The chaotic scene began taking shape about 1:30 a.m. when Boynton Beach police received a call about a burglary in progress at the CarMax on High Ridge Road. When officers arrived they spotted two people in the CarMax car lot. The pair ran to a Dodge Caravan that was waiting in a parking lot just south of CarMax.

The driver accelerated in an attempt to strike officers, police said. Fearing for their safety, Officers Raymond Lugo, Chad Shane and David Britto fired their weapons, striking the van numerous times, police said. Shane fired an AR-15 assault rifle. The officers, who have been on the force less than two years each, have been placed on routine paid administrative leave.

The van's driver, Gene Autry Hall, 20, of West Palm Beach admitted to stealing the Caravan from Riviera Beach and driving it Boynton Beach to burglarize additional vehicles. He also admitted to driving at officers. He said he stopped driving when he heard bullets hitting the van.

Hall is charged with aggravated assault on a law enforcement officer and grand theft.

Six others, all of West Palm Beach, were also charged in the incident, including Jimmy Gray, 19, of 786 Lakaya Drive, who was charged with burglary to an auto, burglary to a structure, resisting arrest without violence.

The others involved were juveniles ranging in age from 14 to 17.

---------------

While it states the driver stopped when he heard shots hit the van, it sounds more like they bounced off. 7 people in a caravan, 23 shots and no one got hit. And an AR on top of it.

Why is it that police depts don't give the firearms training needed especially since many depts now allow their officers to carry AR's?

My nephew is an officer in PA and constantly trains on his own time to remain above dept standards at his own cost. His idea is that the extra training is for the most important reason of not hitting an innocent civilian in a shoot out and second making sure he can stop a threat to him or other officers in the quickest amount of time thus saving lives.

 

[Golden Hound]

"Gene Autry Hall."

?!!

 

[skidmark]

Why is it that police depts don't give the firearms training needed especially since many depts now allow their officers to carry AR's?

Could it be that there are few, if any, cops willing to take a turn behind the wheel while other cops practice shooting at a moving, oncoming vehicle?

Being the target of a 2+-ton projectile while trying to put rounds through the windshield into the driver of said projectile has a tendency (so I hear, having no practical experience myself) to ramp up the adreneline and mess up fine motor control skills like aiming and good trigger press. Moving out of the way of said oncoming projectile also screws up performance that was top-notch on the static range.

It's hard to say why these cops hit the van but not the occupants, with the total lack of ballistic information provided. Other than not hiting the occupants we know nothing about where the bullets impacted.

Instead of ranting about the lack of between-the-eyes hits through windshield glass, I offer thanks that the cops are safe and the youn punks are arrested.

YMMV

stay safe.

skidmark

 

[feedthehogs]

The post is not a rant or a cop bash.

If it was, I would have made an off handed snyde remark about the officers.

Its an observation now that many depts allow officers to carry AR's.

As far as the adrenaline messing up your motor skills, this is what proper training will avoid.

And if you carry a gun for a living and can pull it out anytime and use it, its not too much to ask that it be done with as much skill as one can muster.

That's what the post is about. Please stay on topic.

 

[DragonFire]

fired their weapons, striking the van numerous times

From the few details in the article, I'm not sure I'd conclude the officiers training or markmanship was faulty. Actually, from the article, it only states that 2 were in the van, and the others were taken into custody.

Maybe only 2 got in the van, and the others were arrested somewhere else.

Maybe the 9mm rounds (assuming that's what the 2 had) didn't penetrate the windshield, or engine compartment.

I would think a near empty van could absorb alot of rounds without 2 passengers being hit.

Not that I don't agree that most LEOs could use extra training, but I can't conclude that from this article, or even conclude the 3 officiers didn't do a great job.

 

[LiquidTension]

The answer to the original question is often money. My department is so strapped at the moment that agents aren't allowed to get new duty ammo when we qualify every year. Yes, yearly. So there are many agents that will be carrying around 2 year old Ranger Ts, and there's no telling when we'll be allowed to have new ammo.

If we can't afford ammo, how do you think we're doing with the firearms training? Add to that the fact that we require a college degree and starting pay is only $26k and you realize that even the people that want to practice more can't afford to buy a lot of ammo.

As I said - it's all about the money.

 

[Mr_Rogers]

Several factors here.

As Liquid Tension said - in some PDs money is always tight. Currently there are also problems getting ammo. even when money is available. Talking to a Chief recently, they were having delivery problems from their supplier even though there was plenty of the same ammo available at the local Walmart. I guess it was just a matter of how much you are willing to pay.

As far as this actual event is concerned I think it is unlikely these officers have EVER shot at a moving target, especially one threatening them with impact. Far, far, too many PDs are still training and qualifying against stationary targets stuck into the bank of a local borrowed range. As a generalization, rural PDs can find ranges but can't afford to equip them properly, urban PDs have trouble finding ranges within a reasonable distance from town.

As far as the actual shooting is concerned, these fellows probably turned in a creditable performance considering their training, which was probably inadequate to help them deal with this situation. WE would approve a tax measure to improve local PD firearm training, especially if we got to share the range, but many taxpayers will not do that and a lot of PDs would rather have a new cruiser than more ammo.

Now, I am not sure that standing in the way of a stolen car, then shooting into it when the driver tried to escape, was really smart. The driver was apparently non-violent and, with the information available, I could not be sure that the firing, with an AR15 even, could be justified just to prevent car theft. Radios work really well in these circumstances.

 

[Picard]

Last time I checked, the AR-15 wasn't an assault rifle. Maybe it was a different type of gun. That could explain the horrible accuracy

 

[J Star]

I doubt training helps much in this situation. In the military they train for combat, yet when faced with actual combat, many soldiers freeze up and get killed. You can armchair QB this to death, but you never know what happens until you're in a similar situation.


Liquid Tension - Mike Portnoy fan?

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

All they need to do is read the Buick o Truth on the box o truth website!
Either that or they were using EXXTREME SHOKKK!!! ammo and it did it's catastrophic energy dump thing into the first 1mm of windshield.

 

[Mr_Rogers]

J Star,
Stress effects different people different ways.

What is impossible to argue with is that if you NEVER train for a situation it is likely that you will never react correctly. If you do train for a situation you MAY get the response right or even 25% right. That is a distinct improvement.

Not to provide training, at all, for a predictable circumstance is negligent, possibly culpable negligence, on the part of the PD or city.

 

[Jeff White]

feedthehogs,

What is the Florida POST standard for firearms training?

What training does the Boynton Beach police department conduct and to what standard?

What as the range from the officers to the van?

Where were the officers aiming?

Were the officers firing as they moved away from the van or were they standing still?

What was the elapsed time from the cue to shoot till the van stopped?

What were the occupants of the van doing? Sitting up in the seats? Laying on the floor?

When you know the answers to these questions we can have a reasonable discussion of the incident and if the officers were adequately trained.

Until we know these things any discussion of their training is pointless.

PM me when you can answer those questions and I'll re-open the thread.

Jeff