Most inaccurate rifle I've shot in a long time, and it's a head-scratcher.

[Picher]

I've been shooting my late father's rifles and doing videos of it for my YouTube channel. I've been chomping at the bit to shoot this latest one, waiting for perfect weather conditions to really see what it can do.

It's a Savage Model 12 F-Class in 6.5x284 Norma. My father purchased it in the early 2000's to compete in matches and once told me that it was the most accurate rifle he's ever shot. Coming from a former USMC sniper, who was trained with Carlos Hathcock, and was on the USMC rifle and pistol teams, and I believe was a National Match Champion, that is quite an endorsement.

The rifle in question...

View attachment 1199826

It was a perfect day at the ranch; 69 degrees, maybe 5 mph wind gusts, sunny, and low humidity. I got the rifle set up and was able to touch the trigger with a perfect sight picture and completely confident in every shot. I used the custom ammo my father developed for competition.

I shot two groups and could not believe the results...

View attachment 1199827View attachment 1199828

Well over inch groups at 100 yards!? What the heck?

I checked the scope mount and everything is tight. I removed the bolt, cleaned the bore and inspected it; looks perfect.

View attachment 1199830

I have no idea what it was shooting so poorly.

How can I get this group from a Model 70 in .30-06 AI...

View attachment 1199831

And then get such awful results with a rifle with so much potential?

I did a video of it if interested...

Check my reply done a few minutes ago. John Picher 3/19/2024

 

[Varminterror]

That jumped-out upon seeing the photo. How could anyone who knows anything about rifles/scopes do that? It looks like the person just put the scope on the rifle to provide safe storage for it in a gun cabinet. Only a nincompoop would install a scope like that and think it would work.

You've posted multiple times in this thread that something is wrong with the mount, despite the fact reference to the Leupold mount being used has been pictured multiple times. There's nothing wrong with the front ring - it's a Leupold offeset ring, that's how they are made. It is NOT a weaver ring mounted some extension plate, it's not slipping off of the front of some rail, it's an offset Leupold ring, it's been pictured twice in this thread in high detail. It's a piece of kit you're not familiar with, that's fine, but it is a normal bit of kit. Not ideal by any stretch, but it's not defective, and not poorly mounted.

 

[dranrab]

You have it behaving pretty well now. Drop down to a 1" dot or square target. I think you'll tighten things up a bit more.

 

[Chief TC]

Oh yeah - jacked up scope or action screws. Been there and done that. I have chased the issue before on many rifles.

 

[Buzznrose]

At the risk of sounding like a prick…

1. Hardware: The rifle is 24 years old and 1 MOA was pretty dang good back then…Hathcocks rifle probably wasn’t better than 1 MOA

2. Hardware: Your father would have judged that rifle against others that were probably much less accurate, generally speaking, back then

3. Software: Per your post, your father was a professionally trained USMC sniper…are you, or are you simply shooting his rifle?

Not trying to be a jerk, just looking at this with the a perspective based on 24 years ago…

 

[Varminterror]

1. Hardware: The rifle is 24 years old and 1 MOA was pretty dang good back then

1MOA would not have been pretty dang good for the 12 Target series (what is this rifle) even 24yrs ago. These aren't and weren't standard model 12's, they're the 12 LRP single shot actions with a specific accu-trigger's (and actions marked to NOT run the bolts too hard to avoid slip firing), glass bedded (sometimes fully, sometimes only lug and tang).

Yes, these are still Savage factory rifles, but they aren't and weren't the typical factory rifle.

(Also recognizing, 24 years ago was the year 2000, I'm not sure 1MOA was even still pretty dang good for a factory rifle by then anyway - I was upgrading even Ruger M77's and building AR's shooting smaller than 1moa, as a teenage apprentice).

 

[Buzznrose]

1MOA would not have been pretty dang good for the 12 Target series (what is this rifle) even 24yrs ago. These aren't and weren't standard model 12's, they're the 12 LRP single shot actions with a specific accu-trigger's (and actions marked to NOT run the bolts too hard to avoid slip firing), glass bedded (sometimes fully, sometimes only lug and tang).

Yes, these are still Savage factory rifles, but they aren't and weren't the typical factory rifle.

(Also recognizing, 24 years ago was the year 2000, I'm not sure 1MOA was even still pretty dang good for a factory rifle by then anyway - I was upgrading even Ruger M77's and building AR's shooting smaller than 1moa, as a teenage apprentice).

V, I get you know this world far better than I, and I’ve appreciated the suggestions and advice you’ve provided to many on this forum, myself included.

My mistake on the capabilities of that specific Savage model with the right ammo and a skilled precision rifleman.

But from my limited vision and research, and the amount of time I’ve shot on ranges with John Q Rifleman, MOA was not and by most accounts is still not as prevalent or repeatable outside the long range and PRS shooting community as folks on Internet gun forums would believe, be it due to some combination of ammo choices, firearms capabilities, or shooter skills.

Again, I’m specifically referring to the basic rifle shooter/hunter, who shoots < 200 rounds per year through a mostly stock rifle using factory ammo. They ain’t commonly getting MOA performance for a 5 round group

Hunting Rifle Accuracy

But I’ll bow out to avoid prolonging the argument.

 

[Varminterror]

But from my limited vision and research, and the amount of time I’ve shot on ranges with John Q Rifleman, MOA was not and by most accounts is still not as prevalent or repeatable outside the long range and PRS shooting community as folks on Internet gun forums would believe, be it due to some combination of ammo choices, firearms capabilities, or shooter skills.

Context is everything - so forgive me if I have accepted the OP's claims of context relevant to this particular load and rifle, rather than assuming as you have the context is instead the basic rifle shooter/hunter who shoots < 200 rounds per year through a mostly stock rifle using factory ammo. The OP specifically mentioned a Savage 12 BR in 6.5-284 and described his father as a retired sniper and experienced competitive marksman, so I assumed THAT was the appropriate context for the thread.

Having handled several of the 12 Target Series rifles and having owned multiple of the Savage 12 LRP actions - the rifle in question isn't the typical hunting rifle, so the context you've assigned for firearms capabilities doesn't fit the rifle which is the context of this thread.

Maybe I'm wrong for accepting him at his word, but the OP claims his father was an accomplished shooter and mentioned him as a competitive marksman, notably mentioning his father using this rifle for matches. Acknowledging again that I might be wrong, but the fact it's a heavy barreled single shot bolt action chambered for 6.5-284 suggests a relatively specific context for the type of matches he would have employed this rifle to shoot.

Do I think the average dude who owns a rifle can shoot worth a piss? Nope (and I share that sentiment here often). I wouldn't even bet on the average gun owner ever shooting a 1MOA 5 shot group in their entire life. But contextually, 1MOA from a higher performance rifle model in the hands of a competitive marksman and experienced reloader in the year 2000 wouldn't have been "pretty dang good."

The 6PPC was invented in 1975. The 6 BR was introduced in 1978. Short range IBS record books still have names like Tony Boyer and Bart Sauter holding 5 shot, 10 group aggregate records of 0.1X MOA in the early 2000's, and still have records standing from the 1980's which are 0.0X MOA. When I asked around 2001/2002 to the other SR shooters I was shooting with (and our AR's were shooting sub-MOA at that time, albeit relatively SLIGHTLY sub-MOA) about getting into benchrest competition, the standard I was told I would need to achieve was building a load and rifle which would hold 1" at 300yrds before I would be ready for 600/1000 competition, otherwise I'd be spinning my wheels. And I know by 2000, I was shooting Winchester Ballistic Silvertip 150grn factory loads from my Ruger M77 MkII in 30-06 and holding under 1MOA, holding around 3/4 with handloads using the same bullet - just teenage kid with a factory blued/walnut hunting rifle and factory ammo. My brother was shooting a pre-64 Win 70 in .270win with Nosler Ballistic Tips and punching under 1MOA as well, laying in the bed of a pickup, firing across a wheat field. Regardless of the fact the average gun owner STILL can't shoot worth a piss - the shooting world was capable of a lot better than 1MOA a long time before 2000.

 

[Hookeye]

Varmint hunters tend to shoot pretty decent LOL

 

[Trey Veston]

Maybe I'm wrong for accepting him at his word, but the OP claims his father was an accomplished shooter and mentioned him as a competitive marksman, notably mentioning his father using this rifle for matches. Acknowledging again that I might be wrong, but the fact it's a heavy barreled single shot bolt action chambered for 6.5-284 suggests a relatively specific context for the type of matches he would have employed this rifle to shoot.

I have a storage tub full of awards and medals stretching back decades. These are just a couple of quick photos I took after the fire destroyed most of his reloading room. He was a pretty good shot.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

Could be a bullet weight issue.

A buddies 243 browning BAR will do hits on steel at 800 yards with the first bullet weight and like 8 inch groups at 100 with the other.

 

[Varminterror]

Could be a bullet weight issue.

If it's the factory barrel, it's a 1:8" twist and should be 30" long, no problem at all stabilizing 140's.

 

[Skylerbone]

How did this thread get so off track…looking forward to seeing what it can do once properly tuned.

I suppose if I did have a question at this point it would be the capability of the current owner. I can imagine an award winning rifleman passing on skills to his son, but at present we’ve heard nothing of the sort. The bipod on a bag bit has me head scratching though so I’m itching for a self-evaluation by the OP.

 

[Trey Veston]

How did this thread get so off track…looking forward to seeing what it can do once properly tuned.

I suppose if I did have a question at this point it would be the capability of the current owner. I can imagine an award winning rifleman passing on skills to his son, but at present we’ve heard nothing of the sort. The bipod on a bag bit has me head scratching though so I’m itching for a self-evaluation by the OP.

I really don't know anything about accurate rifle shooting other than breathing and trigger control. I have a bit of natural talent, but lots of poor habits and ignorance of much of it. I grew up running around the woods with a .22 as a kid, then got into big-game hunting a bit, then joined the military. Years later when I was an insurance guy living in Arizona with a wife and kids, my dad came down to visit and gave me an 1885 Winchester high wall clone in .45-70 and introduced me to BPCR shooting. The only instruction my dad gave me was how to reload black powder loads, and was my spotter for three matches. He told me what corrections to make and where to aim. I got trophies in all three matches, but was just too busy to devote any time to the sport. I'm a good trigger puller, and that's about it. I'm pretty accurate with a pistol, but I'm sure I could be better with some training. I usually placed in the top 3 in local GSSF matches when I did that a couple of years ago, but only won once. I love guns and shooting but just don't take it too seriously. I think that rubs a few people the wrong way. I think a lot of shooters are Alpha types that really get into the competitive aspect of shooting and all the little details and techniques, and if you do one little thing wrong or different, then they like to point it out and try to shame you for it.

Whatever. I'm having fun and enjoying myself, so I just try to ignore those types. Plenty of folks are happy to offer suggestions or point out something that is really wrong, and I appreciate that and correct it. Which is evidenced by the increased accuracy of this rifle. I've never owned a rifle with a bipod before, so had no idea of the pitfalls. I figured as long as the crosshairs were on the target and not moving when I pulled the trigger, then it was fine. Learned something new. Which is cool.

 

[Hookeye]

Even if you line it all up and touch it off the same, be sure to follow through.
Have your bench set up and technique repeatable.
The devil is in the details.

 

[Hookeye]

Yrs ago I missed a chuck around 250 yards.
Prone, bipod, was super relaxed, Zen like............ the shot went over.
Did that twice (slow learner but did learn).
Was relaxing at the break.

Had a similar deal indoors archery. Of course a couple folks offered "help"
FWIW, some folks try to mess you up on purpose.

 

[Hookeye]

Am no target shooter, but do OK.
Hyper aware and good eyes...........well used to be LOL

Kinda think the more serious one gets in shooting sports, the less fun there is.

 

[Hookeye]

1MOA would not have been pretty dang good for the 12 Target series (what is this rifle) even 24yrs ago. These aren't and weren't standard model 12's, they're the 12 LRP single shot actions with a specific accu-trigger's (and actions marked to NOT run the bolts too hard to avoid slip firing), glass bedded (sometimes fully, sometimes only lug and tang).

Yes, these are still Savage factory rifles, but they aren't and weren't the typical factory rifle.

(Also recognizing, 24 years ago was the year 2000, I'm not sure 1MOA was even still pretty dang good for a factory rifle by then anyway - I was upgrading even Ruger M77's and building AR's shooting smaller than 1moa, as a teenage apprentice).

Had factory rifles that shot half inch groups at 100 (bed, free float, handloads).... well before Y2K LOL

 

[Laphroaig]

Kinda think the more serious one gets in shooting sports, the less fun there is.

The thrill of victory is pretty special if and when it happens. If you have a short memory the agony of defeat goes away pretty fast. My major competition has always been me, striving to do better.

Spending time with other serious shooters and talking/learning about guns and equipment is priceless.

 

[Hookeye]

The "average shooter".
Guess that depends on what club one belongs to.
My area had good jobs, technical and way back there was nice stuff being shot well at my local club.

Joined a different club a few yrs ago, rural, diff county.
Indeed, the average shooter there shot lesser gear and not as well.
But they seemed to enjoy their outings.

 

[Hookeye]

The thrill of victory is pretty special if and when it happens. If you have a short memory the agony of defeat goes away pretty fast. My major competition has always been me, striving to do better.

Spending time with other serious shooters and talking/learning about guns and equipment is priceless.

I have always competed against myself.
Don't have to worry about politics or cheaters that way.

 

[Buzznrose]

Shooting tiny (.5 MOA) groups with a rifle capable of doing so is, in principle, like a driver trying to get a fast lap in a NASCAR vehicle. The car may be capable of doing a 2:00 minute lap, but the best time for a skilled driver like a Martin Truax or a Jeff Gordon would be far better than me doing my best under the best conditions, let alone less than perfect conditions. Few people can perform to the capability of a high performance tool or machine. I certainly cannot…and the best performance I can execute on Monday will probably not be identical to my best a few days later.

I’ve toyed with the idea of learning to shoot tiny groups or long (for me) distances several times on this board and received a lot of good advice. But the more I research and consider it, the less likely I am to take it to any real extreme, as that just isn’t my style.

I have taken pastimes too serious and lost myself in the minutiae…and have learned that I’m much more a practical shooter who strives for competence in process over perfect performance. Said another way, I want to be consistently successful to a degree that I get better over time with realistic expectations with what works.

Clint Smith made the statement in one of his classes that a good rifleman could do pretty much anything needed in a practical world with a 1.5 MOA rifle. I believe that philosophy. And when I say 1.5M MOA, my definition of that is a gun that can average that MOA over a dozen or more sets of groups….not just the best group of the bunch.

Yes, I’m a novice at this precision rifle shooting world, so take it for the $0.02 opinion that it is that you got for free on an Interwebs gun forum.

YMMV

 

[Varminterror]

a good rifleman could do pretty much anything needed in a practical world with a 1.5 MOA rifle.

This is really like saying, "nobody really needs an AR-15," or "nobody really needs a car which will drive over 80mph." But none of these really make sense... *music plays* - "Like a girl too pretty, with too much class. Being too lucky, a car too fast. No matter what they say I done, I ain't never had too much fun."

The basis of Clint's quote there is a bit of romanticized fantasy mixed with a splash of "the average gun owner doesn't actually shoot." No, most gun owners never actually even do anything which dictates a need for 1.5MOA, let alone better. But many of us have fantasized for generations about some lawless, fringe existence where we find ourselves in some practical world where the average civilian actually has this "live by the rifle" use case, which typically comes heavily steeped in some old world philosophy of ethics where this imagined use case involves hitting anywhere on a man sized target at 600-800 yards and only hunting game at 200-400yrds... relatively pedestrian applications of firearms as a standard, but still largely exceeding the performance standard achieved or experienced by most gun owners.

I might be forgiving of my leverguns, and maybe tolerant for a couple of my AR's, but I've no time for a bolt gun which doesn't hold smaller than 1.5MOA... A lot smaller... a LOT smaller...

Extending the 2min lap analogy - you might not come close to Jeff Gordon's lap time, but we'd still expect you'll hold over 55mph for the lap... No, we don't expect every shooter to ever come close to living up to Charles Greer's 2.86" group at 1,000yrds, but when the hot lap time is 2.86" at 1,000, it's pretty reasonable to expect folks to hang onto 4x larger groups at 1/10th the distance with rifles which on average COULD shoot those ~1/4-1/2moa groups. We try too often to make shooting small groups sound more complicated than it is.

The OP here had some loose mount screws, he remedied the defect, and he reported 1/2" groups... That might not be as small as the rifle can shoot, but it's certainly nothing a reasonably skilled shooter shouldn't be able to do with a rifle like that. There's no sense in trying to run down the shooter any further - loose screws caused loose groups, and the dude can shoot, so when he tightened the screws, he tightened the groups... Pretty simple...

 

[hdbiker]

I owned a Rem .742 carbine that could barely print 3 inches at 100 yards. I killed 50-60 deer with it over 50 years of hunting the northers Wisconsin woods. I kept it because it was handy to carry in the brush, and 90% of my kills were at 50 yards or less, and that .308 165 grain round nose knocked them right over.

 

[Hookeye]

I owned a Rem .742 carbine that could barely print 3 inches at 100 yards. I killed 50-60 deer with it over 50 years of hunting the northers Wisconsin woods. I kept it because it was handy to carry in the brush, and 90% of my kills were at 50 yards or less, and that .308 165 grain round nose knocked them right over.

Got a minty carbine .30-06 742 yrs ago............ was a 7" gun at 100 yards.

First shot cold bore was 1" high of the X (set the Leupold 3-9X for that).

But the next few (hot bbl) were in a decent group about 6" lower.
Bought it used.............guess that's why it was minty LOL

Shame, thought it was a cool rifle.