Most sensitive Large Rifle primer?

[someguy2800]

Hi guys,

I have a 444 marlin Handi Rifle that I worked over to make a nice accurate deer rifle. Only issue is that it has occasional light primer strikes. I put in a wolff extra power hammer spring in it but it is much much worse with that in. I put it in a month or more ago and never test fired it until today. I shot 20 rounds in it today and I think there were only 1 or 2 that went off with one hit of the hammer. One of them took 5 hits and 4 of them I could not get to go off at all. Obviously I can't go to the woods with it like this. I am using new winchester large rifle primers in starline brass. Firing pin protrudes about .060", primers are bottomed out in the pockets, and for you handi rifle guys, yes I am following through on the trigger pull.

Anybody else had a light strike issue with a rifle and been able to resolve it by switching primers? I'm curious which brand of large rifle primers is most sensitive. I tried testing it at the bench tonight by seating primers in an empty case and shooting them in the gun but I could not reproduce the problem. I tried about 10 winchester and 10 CCI magnum primers which are the only large rifle primers I have on hand and they all went off without a failure.

 

[SARuger]

Federal, I have a Winchester 94ae 30-30 that is essentially brand new old stock that misfires on all the others but is 100% reliable with Federal

 

[Load Master]

I would suggest giving Sellier & Bellot 5,6 LR primers. According to the rep I talked with, this is their most sensitive Large Rifle primer they produce.

 

[someguy2800]

I was thinking of trying the S&B after reading about the issue with them being too thin for 308 pressure. That should be about perfect since a 444 is about 10K psi lower than a 308.

Federal was my first thought but I haven't seen any federal rifle primers in years

 

[Klint Beastwood]

i typically use cci br2 large rifle primers for all magnums under 77gr case fill and in all my large rifle primer cartridges. I've used 215m for magnums in colder temps before, but i dont think it would have mattered. if i could find 210m more frequently close by id probably go back to them for everything. The br2's are fine though. never had an issue loading, never had an issue with how they shoot. never shot them out of a semi auto gas gun though...so im not sure of light primer strikes being an issue??? but my ar10 is has a lot of upgraded features. the firing pin doesnt bounce forward for me anyways.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Are you sure you are seating the primers correctly? You usually hear of this problem with handgun loads but reloads are not immune to primers that are not seated completely. If you are requiring multiple strikes to set a primer off its probably not the primers fault. It really sounds like the primers are not seated properly.

 

[SARuger]

I was thinking of trying the S&B after reading about the issue with them being too thin for 308 pressure. That should be about perfect since a 444 is about 10K psi lower than a 308.

Federal was my first thought but I haven't seen any federal rifle primers in years

Our shelves are full of Federal LRP and LPP around here but not a box of S&B to be found anywhere. I did finally find some at the Cabelas in Short Pump VA

 

[243winxb]

I tried testing it at the bench tonight by seating primers in an empty case and shooting them in the gun but I could not reproduce the problem. I tried about 10 winchester and 10 CCI magnum primers which are the only large rifle primers I have on hand and they all went off .

Does factory ammo fire 100% of the time?

Headspace- is the barrel moving forward from the firing pin strike? A metal shim may help?

If possible, try seating a bullet into the rifling, for a crush fit ,when closing the action.

If bullet is already seated into the rifling, try a shorter OAL. You dont want the bullet moving, seated deeper by the firing pin strike. This slowes firing pin velocity.

Is the transfer bar working correctly?

 

[someguy2800]

Are you sure you are seating the primers correctly? You usually hear of this problem with handgun loads but reloads are not immune to primers that are not seated completely. If you are requiring multiple strikes to set a primer off its probably not the primers fault. It really sounds like the primers are not seated properly.

I'm seating them bottomed out in the pocket so they are a few thousandths below flush. They aren't being set deeper by the light strikes.

 

[someguy2800]

Does factory ammo fire 100% of the time?

Headspace- is the barrel moving forward from the firing pin strike? A metal shim may help? View attachment 761436

If possible, try seating a bullet into the rifling, for a crush fit ,when closing the action.

If bullet is already seated into the rifling, try a shorter OAL. You dont want the bullet moving, seated deeper by the firing pin strike. This slowes firing pin velocity.

Is the transfer bar working correctly?

I've never fired any factory ammo in it. I also had the same light primer strike problem with the 223 barrel that was on it before. I set the headspace on it to about .003" and the barrel locks up tight on a piece of aluminum foil. Transfer bar seams to be working fine and I'm being conscious to follow through on the trigger to make sure It's not falling out of place.

 

[Slamfire]

Firing pin protrudes about .060

That was my guess, that you had insufficient firing pin protrusion. I think the problem lies in the mechanics of the rifle. I looked at a picture and your rifle looks like an H&R Topper shotgun, of which I have several. Those have always had reliable ignition with shot shells, even in very cold weather. After changing out to a Wolff extra powder mainspring, you are having misfires. Something is wrong.

As 243Winxb suggested, I think the distance between firing pin and primer is excessive. Something else you have not mentioned, are the primer hits in the middle of the primer or slightly off set. Any off set is bad and increase the chances of a misfire. I don't remember the technical term, but the further from the anvil tip the firing pin strike, the less energy is available to ignite the primer cake.

I looked, H&R1871 is still in business. http://www.hr1871.com/firearms/rifles/handirifle.asp Call them up, have the rifle sent to them, with an explanation of your misfire issues. I am of the opinion that you have an out of tolerance condition that will not be fixed by trying more sensitive primers.

 

[greyling22]

Does your firing pin look OK? Not chipped or too short?

 

[someguy2800]

Firing pin looks great and hits on the primer are well centered, just shallow. I am going to look into the headspace and the protrusion a little deeper to see if I can make any improvements. H&R closed there doors a couple years ago but there website is still up for some reason. They were owned by Freedom Group and not sure if they are still offering service. I'm not inclined to send it to them though as I have done quite a bit of work on the gun.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Firing pin looks great and hits on the primer are well centered, just shallow. I am going to look into the headspace and the protrusion a little deeper to see if I can make any improvements. H&R closed there doors a couple years ago but there website is still up for some reason. They were owned by Freedom Group and not sure if they are still offering service. I'm not inclined to send it to them though as I have done quite a bit of work on the gun.

As most people know Marlin bought H&R and then Freedom Group, owners of Remington bought Marlin. In sure Remington is servicing H&R guns although you might have to pay. The copyright on the site is 2017 so changes have been made this year.

I agree, contact them and see what they say. 1-866-776-9292

 

[someguy2800]

As most people know Marlin bought H&R and then Freedom Group, owners of Remington bought Marlin. In sure Remington is servicing H&R guns although you might have to pay. The copyright on the site is 2017 so changes have been made this year.

I agree, contact them and see what they say. 1-866-776-9292

They are still selling the pump and auto shotguns that they import from somewhere and brand as H&R which is why the website is still active. There is no way this gun is going back to Remington.

 

[Slamfire]

Firing pin looks great and hits on the primer are well centered, just shallow.

I had hangfires and squibs in my M586. That pistol had about 60,000 rounds of PPC rounds, the previous owner never changed the mainspring. The primers looked fine. The pictures are still on photobucket, but, they looked well struck. However, I needed a new mainspring and that fixed those ignition issues.

Primers need to be struck hard and struck fast. Kimber M82G's are particularly frustrating and I have seen a lot of 22 LR rims that appeared well struck, but, the round did not go off first time. One rifle, a shooting bud has had a several year saga of trying to get his Kimber to reliably ignite. Unfortunately, the M82G is the rifle that caused that Kimber incarnation to go to bankruptcy court.

Maybe call Numrich and look for firing pin parts. I think the thing has a hammer and transfer bar. Maybe parts swapping will help. It is my opinion again, that something is off in the distance between firing pin tip and primer.

 

[someguy2800]

I just checked the gun over again. I tightened up the headspace to about .001" and increased the firing pin protrusion another .015". I'll see how that goes with the primers I have and if it still isn't reliable I'll source new primers. Funny thing is the new wolf hammer spring is notably stiffer than the old one but still won't light them off so it must be a firing pin problem. If a different primer resolves it I'm fine with that.

 

[stoky]

Maybe a burr slowing down the hammer or firing pin? You might want to try polishing contact areas with Flitz or Semi-Chrome.
It looks like there are firing pins on flee bay.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nk...12&_fpos=&_fspt=1&_sadis=&LH_CAds=&rmvSB=true
Could be worth a try. An extra might not be a bad thing to have around anyway.

 

[Slamfire]

I just checked the gun over again. I tightened up the headspace to about .001" and increased the firing pin protrusion another .015". I'll see how that goes with the primers I have and if it still isn't reliable I'll source new primers. Funny thing is the new wolf hammer spring is notably stiffer than the old one but still won't light them off so it must be a firing pin problem. If a different primer resolves it I'm fine with that.

Let us know if you fixed the problem. I for one am curious as to the resolution.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

They are still selling the pump and auto shotguns that they import from somewhere and brand as H&R which is why the website is still active. There is no way this gun is going back to Remington.

The phone number I posted was not for Remington, it is from the H&R site on their contact page. When I said Remington is probably servicing the guns I meant at H&R, not at the Remington plant.

 

[someguy2800]

Finally got around to shooting the gun again today. When I was working on the gun last week I stripped out one of the scope rings so had to get a new set before shooting. The adjustments made for an accuracy improvement but it still does not reliably ignite the primers. First round was 2" left and after a quick scope adjustments the next 6 rounds went into a 1-1/2 group. 3 rounds fired on the first strike, 3 took 2 strikes, and 1 took 4 strikes. I am going to try some different primers before replacing any more parts on the gun.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

You mentioned above you have never fired factory ammo in rifle. I suggest that be your next step and if you get the same results the gun needs a gunsmith. If the factory ammo fires fine you need go look to your handloads. In any case stop changing parts on the rifle, it's probably money wasted.

 

[someguy2800]

I'm not bringing my gun to a gunsmith and I'm not buying a $40 box of 20 factory ammo. The firing pin dents are substantial, the firing pin protrusion is fine, the headspace is perfect. This is a straight wall rimmed cartridge so there is no shoulder, headspace is off the rim. The only part that has been changed in the gun was the hammer spring which was noticeably heavier feeling but did not result in more positive ignition. I just wanted to know if there is a softer large rifle primer than a Winchester. If I can't find a primer that is reliable I'll look elsewhere.

 

[fguffey]

The only part that has been changed in the gun was the hammer spring which was noticeably heavier feeling but did not result in more positive ignition.

I will have to ask if the rifle had a problem before the hammer spring was replaced. Again, all the hammer, spring/firing pin can do is put a dent in the primer. I would never assume the rim on the case makes head space perfect; failing to measure the thickness of the rim is a bad habit and then there are feeler gages for the rifles that do not have support for the chamber on the sides and top.

Again, all the hammer, spring/firing pin can do is put a dent in the primer.

and prevent pierced primers.


F. Guffey

 

[someguy2800]

I will have to ask if the rifle had a problem before the hammer spring was replaced. Again, all the hammer, spring/firing pin can do is put a dent in the primer. I would never assume the rim on the case makes head space perfect; failing to measure the thickness of the rim is a bad habit and then there are feeler gages for the rifles that do not have support for the chamber on the sides and top.

Yes it had the same issue with the stock spring. This a break action single shot so headspace is being measured by dropping a loaded round in the chamber and measuring. I just want to know if there is a large rifle primer that is easier to ignite than a Winchester.