MotherJones anti-gun statistical arguments

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Trent

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Several times this week I've had anti-gunners or fence sitters post this to my Facebook wall or message me with it. Appears to be an attempt by Bloomberg's cronies to refute statistical arguments about gun ownership.

http://m.motherjones.com/politics/2013/01/pro-gun-myths-fact-check

Some of the stats are ludicrous;

Myth #3: An armed society is a polite society.
Fact-check: Drivers who carry guns are 44% more likely than unarmed drivers to make obscene gestures at other motorists, and 77% more likely to follow them aggressively.

..... I mean.. seriously? Where do they get these numbers? LOL.

Anyway .. thought some of you would enjoy dissecting and destroying this piece of propaganda point by point. I've already successfully countered this piece twice in debates but I don't want to give any spoilers.

So in the interests of having a good conversation, I'll present this without further comment or interpretation on my part...

Enjoy.
 
I'm unable, sorry. Every time my mouse gets close to clicking on the link I become nauseous and start to retch.
 
You should merely point out a few statistics of your own:

87% of all trip & fall injuries occur while a person is thinking about banning guns.
91% of all murders involve a bipedal humanoid who is unhappy.
99.98% of all gun control proponents are entirely impotent or frigid.
89% of all mental health issues are all in your head.
147% of all statistics are fabricated.
 
I think an important response is that the stats on defensive use used by Mother Jones go against the CDC study Obama commissioned, which cited a range up to 3 million instances of defensive use per year, and estimated a likely number around 500,000, I think.

According to the, again, Obama-ordered study, self-defense use exceeds combined homicides/suicides/accidents by a large number.

Shows they are cherry-picking stats, without any attempt to justify, which obviously challenges the reliability, and shows it to be opinion masquerading as fact.

Here's a summary from Slate: http://www.slate.com/articles/healt..._deaths_and_self_defense_findings_from_a.html
 
First of all, I don't care about the statistics. If we argue the statistics, at some level, we concede that if the statistics "came out right," then it would be a valid basis to repeal or ignore the 2A. I don't concede that. We're talking about the right to own the weapons necessary to defend my family.

Second, and in light of the above caveat, you've got to read carefully:
motherjones said:
Myth #1: They're coming for your guns.
Fact-check: No one knows the exact number of guns in America, but it's clear there's no practical way to round them all up (never mind that no one in Washington is proposing this). Yet if you fantasize about rifle-toting citizens facing down the government, you'll rest easy knowing that America's roughly 80 million gun owners already have the feds and cops outgunned by a factor of around 79 to 1.
Faulty logic: Even if we do outnumber police & military forces by 79 to 1, that doesn't necessarily mean that the antigun folks are not out to take them from us. (Nor does it mean, I might add, that we're interested in shooting it out with police or military.)
motherjones said:
Myth #2: Guns don't kill people—people kill people.
Fact-check: People with more guns tend to kill more people—with guns. The states with the highest gun ownership rates have a gun murder rate 114% higher than those with the lowest gun ownership rates.
From the linked study from whence the 114% came:
. . . . Although causal inference is not warranted on the basis of this study alone, our findings suggest that the household may be an important source of firearms used to kill men, women and children in the United States.
In short, firearms ownership may not be the cause of people killing others with firearms, but the guns used to kill people may come from households. File that under "Thank you, Mr. Wizard."
motherjones said:
Myth #3: An armed society is a polite society.
Fact-check: Drivers who carry guns are 44% more likely than unarmed drivers to make obscene gestures at other motorists, and 77% more likely to follow them aggressively.
From the study:
BACKGROUND: . . . .Are motorists with guns in the car more or less likely to engage in hostile and aggressive behavior?

METHODS: Data come from a 2004 national random digit dial survey of over 2,400 licensed drivers. Respondents were asked whether, in the past year, they (1) made obscene or rude gestures at another motorist, (2) aggressively followed another vehicle too closely, and (3) were victims of such hostile behaviors.

RESULTS: Seventeen percent admitted making obscene or rude gestures, and 9% had aggressively followed too closely. Forty-six percent reported victimization by each of these behaviors in the past year. Males, young adults, binge drinkers, those who do not believe most people can be trusted, those ever arrested for a non-traffic violation, and motorists who had been in a vehicle in which there was a gun were more likely to engage in such forms of road rage.

CONCLUSION: Similar to a survey of Arizona motorists, in our survey, riding with a firearm in the vehicle was a marker for aggressive and dangerous driver behavior.
I'm not a statistics buy, but 2400 randomly chosen drivers seems statistically insignificant to me.

Now, if I understand this correctly, the highest-probability group for flying the bird at other drivers are young, male, paranoid binge drinkers who have been arrested for offenses other than traffic violations. Why am I suppposed to be surprised by this? I just don't think that the presence of a gun is the cause of the problem here.

Also, note the use of the phrase "those who had been in a vehicle in which there was a gun." That does not seem to limit the bad behaviors to drivers, but would include passengers. So if I'm in a car, and my buddy is CCing, and I flip off the guy in the next car, who happens to be riding around with my ex-girlfriend, that counts, right?

motherjones said:
• Among Texans convicted of serious crimes, those with concealed-handgun licenses were sentenced for threatening someone with a firearm 4.8 times more than those without.
Alternate explanation: Non-CCL-holding convicts were likely sentenced for other crimes, like, oh, I dunno . . . "felon in possession," with "threatening with a firearm" likely dismissed as part of a plea bargain.

motherjones said:
• In states with Stand Your Ground and other laws making it easier to shoot in self-defense, those policies have been linked to a 7 to 10% increase in homicides.
Technically, a bad guy killed in a self-defense shooting is still a homicide. It's not a murder, but it's a homicide.

motherjones said:
• Myth #10: We don't need more gun laws—we just need to enforce the ones we have.
Fact-check: Weak laws and loopholes backed by the gun lobby make it easier to get guns illegally.
• Around 40% of all legal gun sales involve private sellers and don't require background checks. 40% of prison inmates who used guns in their crimes got them this way.
Hmmm, quoting a 1997 study. Also, consider the sample size by following the links:
Sample: Probability sample of 2,568 noninstitutionalized adults aged 18 and over who are fluent in English or Spanish and live in households with a telephone.
The other problem I have witht his last statistic (the 40%) is the implication that there's something wrong with a private sale that doesn't require a background check.
 
Myth #4: More good guys with guns can stop rampaging bad guys.
Fact-check: Mass shootings stopped by armed civilians in the past 30 years: 0

False -- I can think of at least three, one in Mississippi, where a school official ran a quarter of a mile to get his gun, one in a Virginia law school, and one in a mall where the shooter saw an armed citizen pointing a gun at him and committed suicide.
• Chances that a shooting at an ER involves guns taken from guards: 1 in 5
So much for the "you don't need a gun, the police will protect you" argument.
 
One of the 23 executive orders from December of 2012 to address gun control involved a CDC funded study, which was contracted to the Institute of Medicine and National Research Council and released June of last year. Not a single finding supported any of the administration's desired positions so Obama and friends never so much as let anyone know the study was even released. This was even a bigger failure than Clinton's study which tried to pin crime to assault weapons.

Study here for all to see
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=18319&page=
 
"There are liars, damn liars and the worst are statisticians." This was told to us by our statistics instructor at college. I was required to take three statistics related courses and one course spent half a semester on how statistics can be used to foul things up either by the methodology of data collection or the interpretation of the data.

Mother Jones would roll over in her grave so much so as to mimic the rpm of a fired rifle bullet if she knew how she was being misrepresented by liberals. She was an anti-abortionist...she was involved in not only armed riots but armed insurrections on the national level where over a million rounds were fired and she did not advocate women's right to vote.

I have also countered the liberal quoting of manipulated statistics. Two things I have come to the conclusion of. Even if they accept that guns are not the evil tool of satan they are still going to vote Democrat. The second is that they have for the most part the emotional reasoning capacity of children. They can be brilliant doctors, lawyers and engineers but they don't have the emotional capacity to function in general society. Because of this they are spot light seeking control freaks not unlike temper tantrum throwing children.

There is an oft quoted manipulated statistic about how a firearm in the home is 40+ times as likely to be used to kill a resident of the home than to kill a felon. That statistic includes suicides. What that statistic doesn't show is the number of times a year a home owner repels a home invasion simply by displaying a weapon...firing that weapon with non-fatal results or the best...capturing and holding the invaders for the authorities.

CUMP's figure of 500,000 DGUs a year is the generally accepted figure, even by some gun control advocates, of the number of true uses a year. I've done it twice in my life...without firing a shot...once against an armed felon with a knife and I've had three friends do it with one getting in an exchange of gunfire in his house. Unfortunately...all of the above except one that was captured by police, simply ran off. Even my knife guy, who had declared to my girlfriend and me as he approached us at the gas station, that he was a murderer and was willing to do it again ran off when he realized he was staring down the barrel of a rifle.

Anyway...liberals like many children have no problem with lying because they see it as a means to justify their control freak agenda which can also be very profitable for them through donations of well meaning older ladies. My best friend had to take over his Mother's bank account because she was on a donation list for every progressive cause from A to Z because she had donated at one time to an animal care organization. Soon after that she was besieged by phone solicitors every month who took so much advantage of her elderly sweetness she ran out of money every month and couldn't pay her bills.

OK...I've disgusted myself now. :mad:
 
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Consider the....uh....source. :barf:

One statistic was interesting:

Among Texans convicted of serious crimes, those with concealed-handgun licenses were sentenced for threatening someone with a firearm 4.8 times more than those without.

I lived in Texas most of my life, and carried with a CHL from the first year it was offered. I don't have any idea of how many, if any, CHL holders have ever been convicted of any serious crime. I'm sure there must have been a couple, but this article sounds like there were several hundred, or at least enough to make some kind of meaningful statistic out of it.

Malarkey.
 
motherjones said:
Myth #2: Guns don't kill people—people kill people.
Fact-check: People with more guns tend to kill more people—with guns. The states with the highest gun ownership rates have a gun murder rate 114% higher than those with the lowest gun ownership rates.

Didn't the "Lott / Mustard" Study indicate that in America, where guns are more numerous, that actually the related crime statistics such as murder are actually lower?
Am I misremembering something?
 
Yet if you fantasize about rifle-toting citizens facing down the government, you'll rest easy knowing that America's roughly 80 million gun owners already have the feds and cops outgunned by a factor of around 79 to 1.

Actually I won't rest easy. It's not anywhere near high enough.
 
I don't believe statistics.

Thirty years of working with government statistics has taught me that statistics will tell you whatever you want them to tell you. Just pick the ones that support your agenda.
 
Since 1993 gun homicides have dropped by 49% and gun related injuries by 75% ,all the while in 21 years, the number of guns in circulation have risen dramatically.,

It certainly bears out John Lott's More Guns ,Less Crime scenario. But Mother Jones is not going to tackle those, in their face,stats! No way! :cool:

Here is the research by Pew Research Study.
 
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Small arms ratio isn't everything; particularly since armored vehicles and air support are force-multipliers.

We need more guns.
We need bigger guns (and shorter/quieter rifles :p)

TCB
 
OK Guys I held off responding for a few.

The tactic to battle this is the same as we've always done. Historically the Anti-Gun movement has always relied on knee-jerk reaction-ism and emotion to advance their cause while we have always relied on logic and statistics to advance ours. The Mother Jones article I linked to in the original post is an attempt for them to switch tactics and "use our own weapon" against us. (Obviously they are very new at it and not that great...)

Anyway the same tactics we have always used will work.

The best results I have found come from battling statistics with emotion, and battling emotion with statistics. The person you are debating is prepared for one fight, but not the other.

E.g.

"So my 115 pound wife does not have the right to defend herself from a 225 pound bodybuilder rapist because you say gun owners are more likely to be obnoxious in traffic??? That is completely ridiculous, and very offensive to her, and all of the other women who have gone through my concealed carry courses. You do realize that well over half of the students I have going through concealed carry are FEMALE, or men over 65 years old, don't you??? The people getting permits are the ones who can NOT physically protect themselves against a stronger opponent; not chest thumping neanderthals."

Anyway, it's worked so far. :)
 
"So my 115 pound wife does not have the right to defend herself from a 225 pound bodybuilder rapist because you say gun owners are more likely to be obnoxious in traffic??? That is completely ridiculous, and very offensive to her, and all of the other women who have gone through my concealed carry courses. You do realize that well over half of the students I have going through concealed carry are FEMALE, or men over 65 years old, don't you??? The people getting permits are the ones who can NOT physically protect themselves against a stronger opponent; not chest thumping neanderthals."

And a typical answer would be, "Well, I can't use a gun!"
 
There's nothing to be won by arguing statistics. Even if yours are accurate and theirs aren't, it won't matter. From their POV, a shooting death is qualitatively different from a car crash death or drowning death or any of the other deaths we habitually try to compare statistically. At this point, insisting on going over these same tired, old arguments again strikes me as a sign of insanity.

Here's how it is: Personal freedom has a cost, and sometimes that cost is lives. We pay it for cars, we pay it for alcohol, we pay it for many things, including guns.
 
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