Much-Revised Defense Loadout

[Manny]

Generally following the K.I.S.S. principle in most things works out best. Top of the line exotic gear is cool, but remember, if you ever have to use it in a self defense situation it will be taken and held for evidence and you may never see it again. If you do get it back it maybe rusty, have extra dents and dings, a marred finish, possibly evidence markings of a permanent nature. There are a whole lot of horror stories about the condition some folks get thier property back in. Something to think about.

There is also a reason the "boring" but popular guns such as say a Glock 19 became so popular, they just flat work, and work superbly. And if for some reason they don't, parts and service are readily available. Go to nearly any class and you'll probably find the bulk of the participants and and instructors using Glocks, with M&P's, XD's and 1911's in lesser numbers. I would be very surprised if you ever see a Sphinx. Having an oddball pistol means if it goes down in training you're likely out of luck for anyone having parts or training to get it running again. Bad in training, even worse in real life. Good luck in finding a holster for the oddball as well. If you have a Glock and the same happens, chances are very good any number of folks can help you get up and running with both parts, extra mags and a small handfull of parts that are as common as dirt.

Myself, I'd choose a Glock and try to get a second identical, at least eventually, to have back up if you ever do need to use it and have it taken as evidence. With a second waiting at home, you won't be left defenseless. You can buy a pair of them with factory night sights for what that Sphinx lists for. Not as exotic and cool, but a lot more practical. I'd also give a second thought to having a mounted light, at least at all times, as finding a good holster to accomadate a mounted light is difficult, as is concealing it for discrete carry. Clint Smith advocates carrying the light seperate and installing it as needed. I use a seperate Surefire E1B I carry daily. Not quite as handy as a mounted light, but much more versitile. The X300 is a superb carbine light on that BCM you want, and can easily and quickly be swapped between pistol and carbine.

Just some food for thought.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Yup, you're focusing way too much on stuff. You're lost in the weeds of specific equipment as if the equipment matters.

It doesn't.


Mindset. Skillset. Toolset.


As a new gun owner you'd be far better off buying a .22 and spending all that money on ammo. Your priority should be learning how to shoot rather than buying stuff and thinking that all this stuff is what makes the difference.

Of course, .22 ammo is hard to come by right now, but it will return and be plentiful again soon enough.

You have your whole life to buy stuff. But you only get one chance to learn good shooting skills the first time. Undoing a bunch of bad habits you taught yourself is 10 times harder than learning good habits and shooting techniques the first time.


Of course, if all you really want is the stuff, you're well on your way.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

Come on, lay off the guy. He seems earnest, young, and simply new to me. Sure, he seems all into the tacticool thing, but that's a generational thing. Young folk these days, the cool stuff is what the SF types use in Afghanistan and Iraq, as glamorized by Call of Duty and so on.

That might sound dumb to those of you who are older and more experienced, but I reckon the same thing might have applied to you when the cool thing was what Vic Morrow was using in Combat, or Fess Parker's Davy Crockett. Or for those in between, Don Johnson in Miami Vice.

Anyway, there isn't a single person on this forum who couldn't be accused of liking his or her gear a little too much by most people anyway. Nothing wrong with that, we all have our hobbies.

If the OP comes off as inexperienced and young, everyone here was there once, and the only cure for it is to learn by experience and get less young!

To the OP, I think your best course of action is to get a vanilla M4 like a Colt 6920 and a Glock 19/M&P 9/XD9/Sig 229/whatever and call it good for now. You sound like you've got a fair bit of money to throw around, so start at the basic level and figure out what you like and need from there.

The nice thing about ARs is that they're endlessly upgradeable and customizable. You can build what you want without having to worry about buying it that way at the start.

 

[Kleanbore]

For an armed citizen to pursue any strategy that "attempts to mimic the loadouts of experienced shooters and operators in the military sector" seems somewhere close to preposterous and may even lead one into difficulty, for one very important reason: the "military sector" has been assigned duties and objectives that involve engaging enemy combatants in battle and destroying them, while the civilian, armed or unarmed, is expected to do only what is immediately necessary for self preservation, and to avoid the use of excessive force to the extent possible.

The differences are very, very significant.

Don't start selecting gear until you understand why you will need it, know what you are going to use it for and why, and have both the knowledge and ability to use it without getting into trouble.

Start with these, borrowed from a Sticky in ST&T and developed for us by Frank Ettin:

... know and understand the legal issues -- when the use of lethal force would be legally justified, when it would not be, and how to tell the difference. ...understand how to handle the legal aftermath of a violent encounter and how to articulate why, in a particular situation, you decided to take whatever action you did.

...know about levels of alertness and mental preparedness to take action. You will want to understand how to assess situations and make difficult decisions quickly under stress. ...know about the various stress induced physiological and psychological effects that you might face during and after a violent encounter.

...develop good practical proficiency with your gun. That includes practical marksmanship, i. e., being able to deploy your gun and get good hits quickly at various distances. It also includes skills such as moving and shooting, use of cover and concealment, reloading quickly, clearing malfunctions, and moving safely with a loaded gun.

Acquiring and practicing with Airsoft guns can help a lot with the last of the above. After that and after you have learned the basics of shooting at a range, avail yourself of some good defensive firearm training.

After you have spent some time in these areas, you will have a basis for judging what you should carry for self-preservation.

In the mean time, remember three words from BullfrogKen:

Mindset. Skillset. Toolset.​

In that order.

They are so important that they bear repeating:

Mindset. Skillset. Toolset.​

 

[Spats McGee]

I like cool gear as much as the next guy (even if I can't really afford the really cool stuff). So I'm not going to jump on anyone for wanting nice stuff. With that said, I will add my voice to the chorus advising some training. The gear is only part of the equation.

 

[CountGlockulla]

Ditch the Sphinx and get a Glock 19. Other than that you are good to go from a gear standpoint.

Get some quality handgun and carbine training.

 

[leadcounsel]

Let's be fair to the OP. He's inexperienced, but interested. I applaud him coming here to ask questions.

I'll say again that you need to get training. I consider myself well trained and I own or/and have fired nearly every modern weapon, including training in the military on full auto versions of many, many new and old weapon systems (MG42, SAW, Minigun, AK47, SCAR, Uzi, MP5, Mark19, AT4, M2, M249, M4, etc. etc. etc.).

I've never even heard of the Spinx handgun. Had to look it up. Appears to be a CZ clone. http://www.sphinxarms.com/ CZs are good guns so this may be a winner; but I would be VERY reluctant in putting my bets on an unknown gun as my only/primary handgun. Same is true with any gun.

There are literally dozens of battle tested platforms in the $300-600 range. Get one that already has the bugs worked out. (Glock/CZ/1911/SigSauer/XD/Ruger/SW/etc.). Don't discount a revolver.

Maybe a less expensive rifle to learn on, don't discount the 12 gauge shotgun as you did before. Maybe a Marlin .30-30. Both are EXCELLENT first longguns for home defense and under $300 each. You can graduate into more expensive hardware.

For very little $, you could outfit yourself with excellent beginners tools to cover all of your basis.
1. Used Glock/Ruger/XD/M&Ps can be found for $350-$450 every day. Get 9x19mm. 1000 rounds of ammo. Total price. $700.
2. Used Marlin .30-30. $350. 200 shells, another $100. Total price. $450. OR. An SKS and ammo. Add $100.
3. Used Mossberg 12 gauge. $250. 200 buckshot shells, another $100. Total $350.

Total price, $1400. Take a few classes on how to use these, and train.
Learn these three tools extremely well, and you will be prepare for nearly any threat life throws at you.

Invest LESS money in hardware, and MORE money in ammo, range practice, and actual training/courses.

 

[Safetyfirst]

In response to why my selections are similar to what those in uniform run when they're off-duty, it's because those people know what they're doing and there is a lot of experience behind their choices. For those who are mocking my choices since I'm not planning a "military operation," I see no reason why I should settle for cheaper or less ergonomic firearms simply because I may not need their full potential. And finally, for those of you with nothing better to do than make fun of my choices of vocabulary or attempt to predict my age and lifestyle, perhaps this wasn't the best place to gain knowledge on the subject. Right now the flavor of this forum is a tad hostile and accusatory, like I stumbled into a secret club that isn't accepting new members.

 

[nplant]

I've instructed hundreds of new shooters in my life. It's almost universal that I see eagerness to "get the right stuff." After one or two classes, those people who had the income available to get what they were told was "the right stuff" almost invariably suffer from buyer's remorse, and end up trading or selling gear that once was ideal for other stuff that they would not have even considered before.

You are, of course, welcome to ignore all the chorus here, and strike out on your own, buy what you like, and then train with it. You will certainly do well if you keep your mind on learning that gear. I think what the majority of the people are trying to do for you is to help you keep some money in your pocket for the epiphany when you fully realize that, unlike infantry and SOF soldiers who do one thing in civilian life, there is a whole spectrum of appropriate gear for those of us who are average joes.

Also, realize that it is SO tempting to conflate glamour with utility when you're new to guns. I see this all the time, too (including a new buddy who bought his first M&P pistol and was dismayed that the thing had developed a scratch from range use). Sure, your fancy new ACR looks really cool - that slick space gun that FN puts out has a sweet profile - but they are tools to throw copper and lead away from you really fast. That's all. Ask yourself if ergonomics is the most important thing, or if you secretly just really like the cool looking gear.

Finally, why not start, if you're the planning type, with an annual budget for your firearms defense journey? For each year, budget first for training, second for ammo, and last for equipment. To borrow an old marketing slogan: You are the weapon, your <blank> is just a tool.

 

[bdickens]

In response to why my selections are similar to what those in uniform run when they're off-duty, it's because those people know what they're doing and there is a lot of experience behind their choices. For those who are mocking my choices since I'm not planning a "military operation," I see no reason why I should settle for cheaper or less ergonomic firearms simply because I may not need their full potential. And finally, for those of you with nothing better to do than make fun of my choices of vocabulary or attempt to predict my age and lifestyle, perhaps this wasn't the best place to gain knowledge on the subject. Right now the flavor of this forum is a tad hostile and accusatory, like I stumbled into a secret club that isn't accepting new members.

I hate to break this to you, but most military personnel not only do not go armed off-duty, they do so even less when they are on duty. The only time you get to play with guns is during certain highly restricted training events.

No offense, but what you need to do is get your head right first prior to fantasizing about high tech "loadouts" and other such nonsense.

 

[Mike J]

As far as ergonomics go that is one of the reasons I think you should gain some experience (shoot some different firearms before buying anything). Military & Law Enforcement have what gun they will use dictated to them. As civilians we get to choose what fits us best. All people don't have the same size hands. What fits one person well can stink for another person. That is one of the reasons there are many models available with interchangeable backstraps. I do realize a couple of people made fun of your vocabulary but sometimes we have to just let some things roll off. Most of the folks are just trying to get you to focus your energy & resources on you learning how to use firearms & have a good mindset for self defense. I may mess this quote up but Colonel Jeff Cooper said, "A person thinking they are armed because they own a gun is like someone thinking they are a musician because they own a piano." If you don't know who he was I would suggest you google his name. A good place to start learning the self defense mindset would be to read some of Mas Ayoob's writing Learning to shoot is good but learning to think is even more important.

 

[Spats McGee]

Safetyfirst, like I said before, I'm not going to knock you for wanting top-of-the-line gear. I will also admit to not having read all of your posts, but those that I have read lead me to believe that you just might be new to firearms. I mentioned training earlier, but I am going to make a couple of concrete suggestions on the equipment side. I'm not suggesting that you "settle" for inferior equipment, but I am suggesting that there may be a better path to getting the equipment that you really need and want.

Carbine: BCM/HSP Jack. One magazine in the gun and at least one spare in vehicle/house. Non-magnified optic, most likely Aimpoint Micro T-1, will ride on top.

Now, I am by not an AR expert. Not by any stretch of the imagination. I'm sure that the HSP Jack is a top-notch rifle. With just a quick search, I found one for ~$2150. I suspect that the rifle is easily capable of far more accuracy than I am. Then again, many modern rifles are capable of far more accuracy than I am, and certainly reliable enough for my (or your) purposes. I'm certain that you could find another AR from a reputable company for far less (I'm thinking $1200-1500), "get to know" that rifle, then use the savings to customize it as you see fit.

Handgun (CCW): Sphinx SDP Compact Kryptonight Edition (when available). One magazine in the gun with another on personnel and at least one more in vehicle/house. Light, most likely Surfire X300 Ultra, running underneath. Threaded barrel for Defiance suppressor use (recreation only).

As leadcounsel noted, this looks like a CZ clone. While I have no personal experience with CZs, they do have a good reputation. I found a Sphinx SDP available online for ~$1200. The CZ P-01 Duty looks like the closest model that the Sphinx has cloned, except that the Sphinx may have more cushy grips. I can't really tell on that. Still, the CZ has an MSRP of <$500. Buying that instead gets you a pistol that is almost identical, has all the controls in the same spots, and is reliable. That frees up another $700 for ammo and training. I'd hate to hear that you spent $1200 on the Sphinx, only to decide that you really hate shooting it. If you decide that you hate the CZ: (1) the lesson is somewhat less costly; and (2) there's a larger pool of potential buyers if you choose to sell the pistol.

As leadcounsel pointed out, "you can graduate in to more expensive hardware."

 

[BullfrogKen]

In response to why my selections are similar to what those in uniform run when they're off-duty, it's because those people know what they're doing and there is a lot of experience behind their choices.

Also hate to break it to you, but people in uniform - be they military or police - don't get to choose what they use. The choice is made for them, by someone who won't use it, who is more concerned with:

• how much it costs;
• how much will it cost to fix it when the grunts break it;
• what company offers us the sweetest deal for the business;
• and sometimes what an influential politician wants for a favor to a business/workers in his or her district.

Regardless of how the choice is made, the end user says, "thank you sir, may I have another," as he trudges off to parts unknown.


And regarding experience. Yeah, uh, I thought I knew everything about guns and shooting because I was a Marine grunt. Only after I got out, grew up, and expanded my world did I truly realize how absolutely little I knew.

Military people are usually not gun people. The ones that are often buy only what they know for their personal use, which is what they used.


It wasn't until I admitted I wasn't as smart or as good as I thought I was that I began to really listen to and appreciate the opinions of others. The people who really knew about the world of guns and shooting were the civilians.

 

[Potatohead]

In response to why my selections are similar to what those in uniform run when they're off-duty, it's because those people know what they're doing and there is a lot of experience behind their choices. For those who are mocking my choices since I'm not planning a "military operation," I see no reason why I should settle for cheaper or less ergonomic firearms simply because I may not need their full potential. And finally, for those of you with nothing better to do than make fun of my choices of vocabulary or attempt to predict my age and lifestyle, perhaps this wasn't the best place to gain knowledge on the subject. Right now the flavor of this forum is a tad hostile and accusatory, like I stumbled into a secret club that isn't accepting new members.

I thought so too, when I started. Even PMd a mod after an argument and told them "delete my account, I dont want to take up space on your server anymore". (I don't even know if their is a server, I'm not a computer guy). But in the meantime, a few folks PMd me saying everybodys human, pretty good people here and such. I PMd the mod and said hold up, their are some good folks here, I'd like to hang around. I'm glad I did, most everyone here are pretty good dudes, and are concerned about safety, and being a productive member of (firearm) society, and they want others to be that way also. I had never been on a forum, and their are a few do's and dont's that I was unaware of. One thing among many, they will know if someone is BSing or trying to be someone theyre not...Another thing, you probably came on a little strong with all of the "tacticool" stuff...if you put that above training (like it sounds you were going to), they will eat you alive here, and rightfully so. But they (we? not sure I'm "in the club" all the way either) are looking out for your best interest, and the best interests of the gun community as a whole. Stick around, these guys know their stuff and you will learn a lot here. I have. PH

 

[bdickens]

The people who really knew about the world of guns and shooting were the civilians.

+1

Yup.

 

[mdauben]

Come on, lay off the guy.

I agree with Madcap Magician. The OP comes across as an ernest but inexperienced shootier looking for honest input on his choices. That's no reason for some of the borderline "low road" responses he's recieved in this and his other threads.

 

[MattShlock]

...my selections are similar to what those in uniform run when they're off-duty...

Now now Master Safety, when you go somewhere writing that kind of silliness we presume you are still on Summer recess from high school and found Soldier of Fortune (is that still in print?) or are playing its modern equivalent.

My suggestion is to work to get a scholarship, go to college for at least two years and be serious about such a luxury, and read here for some time first while trying to work your way up the ranks of the NRA's Smallbore Qualification rankings.

PS: BullfrogKen is quite right about general military people not being "gun people." Forget that many of them didn't have alot of better options when they went into the enlisted ranks. They are "kill and be killed people." They have a role, tools chosen for them, and employ them per the politcal requirements of the state for as long as there is enough will of the people to sacrifice them for "the cause" (which in our case has usually been pretty reasonable).

 

[goon]

I'm not saying it's a bad idea to have a "just in case" type of plan that includes some defensive firearms. But it is important to remember that it's probably going to be more of a plan than a reality in most cases. It's way more likely that you'll just go on about your business, going to work most days, paying your bills, and living a relatively uneventful existence. Then you'll get laid off. Then you'll be unemployed. Then you'll get a new job. Then your life will be uneventful again. And so it will go...
Even in the cases where the "just in case" plan becomes a reality... I hate to say it, but I wonder if a chainsaw, a sleeping bag, some good boots, and ten gallons each of gasoline and water won't be more use than all our fancy rifles. And I say this as a guy who can't resist the urge to slobber over half a dozen fancy rifles every time I get within five miles of a gun store.

If you haven't spent any money yet, I'd say hold off just a little on buying. Just be sure that you're buying firearms you'll actually like and that will continue to be useful to you.

 

[tarosean]

Quote:
Come on, lay off the guy.

I agree with Madcap Magician. The OP comes across as an ernest but inexperienced shootier looking for honest input on his choices. That's no reason for some of the borderline "low road" responses he's recieved in this and his other threads.

Considering he got my thinly veiled attempt at humor in his first thread. I am not so sure he is that "wet behind the ears" and we are just being toyed with..

you dont happen to run mall security do ya?

I'm not a mall ninja or anyone resembling Gecko45.

 

[Safetyfirst]

The only reason I got either of those references was because another member posted about it right after you made that remark.

 

[tarosean]

^ So be it.... Pull up a chair and stay awhile.. This really is one of, if not the best, firearm forums on the net. You can learn a lot here, there is tons and tons of information and very knowledgeable members.

Yes you are getting ribbed for you ancillary choices but your still here so it shows you have somewhat thicker skin.. At the end of the day we may not all agree on a lot of topics but we still have a common interest.

 

[goon]

Anyone who can use google can find out who Gecko45 is.
And the assault wheelbarrow concept is well-known people-of-the-gun internet lore.

Safetyfirst - don't get discouraged by some of the posts on here. One of my really good friends is a "gear guy" too. He's always showing off the latest gadget and he and my brother go on and on about the details of some knife or some new ammunition or the slide velocity of a .455 widget snipper. Then they ask me about what I think of some new tactical wizardry... and I don't really think anything of it.

It takes all kinds I guess.

 

[Rocketmedic]

I work on an ambulance in a large city. No gun allowed, I carry a sharp pocketknife and a bright light. A gun would get me fired.

I don't carry in my truck...too likely to be stolen from our unsecured lot. When I do, it's a generic Taurus M82 38 Special four-incher.

My wife carries a RIA 1911 CS.

At home, we have two Mossbergs loaded with 00 buck, a Remington 597 with a loaded mag next to it, and a pair of Mosins with ammo nearby.

Realistically, the shotguns are our HD pieces.

Simple, easy, effective.

 

[Safetyfirst]

Why do people choose shotguns over semi-auto rifles for home defense? Other than kinetic energy I see zero advantage IMHO

 

[allaroundhunter]

Why do people choose shotguns over semi-auto rifles for home defense? Other than kinetic energy I see zero advantage IMHO

Familiarity. The most important factor in choosing a defensive firearm is to choose one that you understand and can work 100 percent of the time in most any condition.

I can keep my follow up shotgun shots about as fast as many people can make follow up shots with an AR (yes, with defensive shotgun loads). My defensive shotgun has a 9+1 capacity.


Let me put it this way. The most important aspect of self defense are: Mindset, skillset, toolset; in that order.

If someone is more skilled with a shotgun, then to have them choose to use an AR would be a poor choice. Pick the gun that you are best with and use it.

For pure "stopping power" the 5.56 can't hold a candle to 12 ga 00 buckshot. So, those who can run a shotgun well are most certainly not at a disadvantage.


I keep an AR, several pistols, a 12 ga shotgun, and a lever action .30-30 ready to go. I am proficient with each, but they do each serve a different role.


Safetyfirst, it seems that you are getting far to caught up in what looks good on paper. A little real world experience would do you a whole lot of good. Get out and rent a couple of guns. Attend a defensive rifle class, and then handgun, and then shotgun.

You will discover that there are things that each do better than the other two.