my 1st. Classic S&W What did I buy?

[Mark_Mark]

The 5 models listed are the predecessors to the model 10. There were a wide variety of other models in other calibers.

The lock work on the new ones is surprisingly similar. Open up a 2023 S&W 460 XVR and the parts all look pretty close. There are many slight changes over the years and I don't think any of the parts would be compatible, but you could tell what they are.

I have a 460V love that gun!!

 

[Mark_Mark]

Well, nearer .43, as is the .44 MagNumb et al.

There are a lot of caliber designations that do not closely specify the diameter of bullet or barrel. There is either something in history that explains the mismatch, or it is just advertising to make a distinction from other cartridges.

And, by the way, while the .38-40 does indeed shoot a .40" bullet, the old yarn that it is really a .40-38 is not right. As seen here, UMC was selling .38 Winchester (and Colt Lightning) with a full 40 grains of powder. And .45 Colt's too, notwithstanding the Army having watered it down. Sorry, I don't know the year of this listing.

.View attachment 1143101

was that the case price? ammo was very expensive then

 

[UncleEd]

Speedo66,

As Jim Watson has pointed out the .44-40 is closer to .43.
I used to load for the .44-40 and used .426 jacketed but
also went in lead to .428.

That "bottleneck" was a real bottleneck in reloading,
ruining many a thin rimmed hunk of brass in the process.

 

[Speedo66]

Speedo66,

As Jim Watson has pointed out the .44-40 is closer to .43.
I used to load for the .44-40 and used .426 jacketed but
also went in lead to .428.

That "bottleneck" was a real bottleneck in reloading,
ruining many a thin rimmed hunk of brass in the process.

I loaded the .38-40, same, had to be very careful because the cases were too expensive to waste.

Buying factory loaded was out of the question @ $75/box.

 

[stonebuster]

Beautiful pre Model 10, Mark Mark! IMO, it was money well spent. As to "what did I buy?" I think a ticket for a long journey of collecting old S&W revolvers. This is just the tip of the iceberg. Enjoy the trip!

 

[Mark_Mark]

Beautiful pre Model 10, Mark Mark! IMO, it was money well spent. As to "what did I buy?" I think a ticket for a long journey of collecting old S&W revolvers. This is just the tip of the iceberg. Enjoy the trip!

Just the Tip! I really want to shoot it. Mabey I should pick up a another Pre 10 to shoot and wear. Do shooters/collectors have these debates in there head? I almost want to go ahead and put a few scuffs on it so I can bot think about it and shoot

 

[Pat Riot]

Well, nearer .43, as is the .44 MagNumb et al.

There are a lot of caliber designations that do not closely specify the diameter of bullet or barrel. There is either something in history that explains the mismatch, or it is just advertising to make a distinction from other cartridges.

And, by the way, while the .38-40 does indeed shoot a .40" bullet, the old yarn that it is really a .40-38 is not right. As seen here, UMC was selling .38 Winchester (and Colt Lightning) with a full 40 grains of powder. And .45 Colt's too, notwithstanding the Army having watered it down. Sorry, I don't know the year of this listing.

.View attachment 1143101

That is a neat chart. Thank you.

 

[Pat Riot]

Just the Tip! I really want to shoot it. Mabey I should pick up an another Pre 10 to shoot and wear. Do shooters/collectors have these debates in there head? I almost want to go ahead and put a few scuffs on it so I can bot think about it and shoot

Treat it with kid gloves and you’ll drop it or bang it into something. Been there, done that.
If you bought it to shoot, shoot it. Bottom line, it’s yours, you can do as you please.

 

[Mark_Mark]

Treat it with kid gloves and you’ll drop it or bang it into something. Been there, done that.
If you bought it to shoot, shoot it. Bottom line, it’s yours, you can do as you please.

that’s true! there was literally million of them made… but how many is left in perfect condition?

I also don’t want to be like the last owner who either forgot about it or thought it would be worth $$$ and it’s only worth .5$$

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

A little late checking in on this one, so I will try to answer as many questions as I can.

The 38 is a 38 Military and Police Postwar Model. I cannot make out the serial number very well, but as suggested the serial numbers for these ran from S811338 in 1945 through S99999 in 1945.

There really is no such thing as a Pre-Model 10. The 38 Military and Police model was manufactured from 1899 until 1957, with various iterations. In 1957 Smith and Wesson went to a model numbering system and at that time the 38 Military and Police became the Model 10.

It is difficult to tell from the photos, but yours looks in perfect condition, I doubt very much it has been refinished. Run your finger tips over the markings stamped on the barrel. If you can feel slightly raised steel around the letters it has not been refinished. When refinishing a revolver, the polishing process usually wipes away the slightly raised steel around the markings. The grips look correct, for that model, and as noted one of them will probably have the serial number of the revolver either stamped or written in pencil on the underside. The serial number should show up in four different places. The number at the bottom of the butt is the serial number of record. The number should also be stamped on the flat on the underside of the barrel, rear of the cylinder, and underside of the extractor star. That one is usually pretty hard to see. If the numbers in the other three places match the one on the butt, the gun shipped with those parts. It should have the current hammer block on the inside, which S&W began using after a shipboard accident in 1944. So it is completely safe to carry fully loaded with six rounds. The caliber marking on the barrel is 38 S&W SPECIAL CTG. CTG stands for cartridge. Smith and Wesson always marks 38 SMITH & WESSON SPECIAL instead of just 38 Special to let you know they invented the cartridge in 1899. The hammer is the old long throw or long action hammer, which would be correct for a Postwar M&P made around 1945. Still lots of Case Hardening colors on the hammer and trigger. Nice box, it is correct for about 1945 or 1946. Frankly, I would be tempted not to shoot that revolver, it is just too pretty. It is your gun, do with it as you will, but I would probably lock that one away in the safe along with the box. Nice that you got the instruction manual with it too.



About the Registered Magnum, that is the only gun left on my grail list that I have not gotten yet. The very first N frame 357 Magnums were the Registered Magnums, in 1935. As a promotional program, S&W registered the serial number of the revolver to the owner. S&W was overwhelmed with sales of the Registered Magnums after building about 5,500, and discontinued registering the revolvers to owners in 1938.



As you have already been told, that is not a Winchester barrel on the 32-20 Hand Ejector. 32 WINCHESTER CTG was just another name for 32-20. This one shipped in 1916, it is a 4th Change. If you can read it, the caliber marking on this one is 32 W.C.F CTG. 32 Winchester Center Fire is the alternative name for 32-20. Not really much bottle neck to the 32-20, it did not give much problem with the cases being shoved back out of the chambers, there was not enough of a bottle neck angle to cause the empties to wedge backwards out of the chambers. The one you are looking at is probably a little bit older than mine, with the round butt and hard rubber grips. I'll tell you, I would be all over that one for $700. I paid $800 for mine a bunch of years ago. Yes, Starline still makes 32-20 brass, but they are out of stock right now.






Yes, that is the most recent edition of the Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson; the 4th edition. Published in 2016. I prefer the 3rd edition, I am more used to it and it is easier for me to look stuff up in it.




Yes and no about the lockwork being the same with the new ones. A number of years ago S&W started using Metal Injection Molded (MIM) parts for the lockwork, as opposed to the old machined parts. MIM parts are less expensive to make than machining parts from solid steel. Also, the configuration of some of the parts has changed from the old machined parts. Volumes have been written about MIM parts vs machined parts, I ain't gonna start talking about it here.

Just to give you a taste, here are the parts inside a Model 17-3 made in 1975. Mostly machined from solid stock.






Here are the parts inside a Model 617-8, made in 2003. Most of the parts are MIM parts.

And the .44-40 is actually a .42 caliber.

Incorrect. Rifle barrel groove diameter for 44-40 was originally right around .427, although it varied all over the place. Groove diameter for 44 Russian, 44 Special, and 44 Magnum is .429. When I load 44-40 I use bullets that are .428 in diameter. So if we are going to round out to 2 decimal places, all of the above are 43 caliber.

 

[Mark_Mark]

Howdy

A little late checking in on this one, so I will try to answer as many questions as I can.

The 38 is a 38 Military and Police Postwar Model. I cannot make out the serial number very well, but as suggested the serial numbers for these ran from S811338 in 1945 through S99999 in 1945.

There really is no such thing as a Pre-Model 10. The 38 Military and Police model was manufactured from 1899 until 1957, with various iterations. In 1957 Smith and Wesson went to a model numbering system and at that time the 38 Military and Police became the Model 10.

It is difficult to tell from the photos, but yours looks in perfect condition, I doubt very much it has been refinished. Run your finger tips over the markings stamped on the barrel. If you can feel slightly raised steel around the letters it has not been refinished. When refinishing a revolver, the polishing process usually wipes away the slightly raised steel around the markings. The grips look correct, for that model, and as noted one of them will probably have the serial number of the revolver either stamped or written in pencil on the underside. The serial number should show up in four different places. The number at the bottom of the butt is the serial number of record. The number should also be stamped on the flat on the underside of the barrel, rear of the cylinder, and underside of the extractor star. That one is usually pretty hard to see. If the numbers in the other three places match the one on the butt, the gun shipped with those parts. It should have the current hammer block on the inside, which S&W began using after a shipboard accident in 1944. So it is completely safe to carry fully loaded with six rounds. The caliber marking on the barrel is 38 S&W SPECIAL CTG. CTG stands for cartridge. Smith and Wesson always marks 38 SMITH & WESSON SPECIAL instead of just 38 Special to let you know they invented the cartridge in 1899. The hammer is the old long throw or long action hammer, which would be correct for a Postwar M&P made around 1945. Still lots of Case Hardening colors on the hammer and trigger. Nice box, it is correct for about 1945 or 1946. Frankly, I would be tempted not to shoot that revolver, it is just too pretty. It is your gun, do with it as you will, but I would probably lock that one away in the safe along with the box. Nice that you got the instruction manual with it too.



About the Registered Magnum, that is the only gun left on my grail list that I have not gotten yet. The very first N frame 357 Magnums were the Registered Magnums, in 1935. As a promotional program, S&W registered the serial number of the revolver to the owner. S&W was overwhelmed with sales of the Registered Magnums after building about 5,500, and discontinued registering the revolvers to owners in 1938.



As you have already been told, that is not a Winchester barrel on the 32-20 Hand Ejector. 32 WINCHESTER CTG was just another name for 32-20. This one shipped in 1916, it is a 4th Change. If you can read it, the caliber marking on this one is 32 W.C.F CTG. 32 Winchester Center Fire is the alternative name for 32-20. Not really much bottle neck to the 32-20, it did not give much problem with the cases being shoved back out of the chambers, there was not enough of a bottle neck angle to cause the empties to wedge backwards out of the chambers. The one you are looking at is probably a little bit older than mine, with the round butt and hard rubber grips. I'll tell you, I would be all over that one for $700. I paid $800 for mine a bunch of years ago. Yes, Starline still makes 32-20 brass, but they are out of stock right now.

View attachment 1143130




Yes, that is the most recent edition of the Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson; the 4th edition. Published in 2016. I prefer the 3rd edition, I am more used to it and it is easier for me to look stuff up in it.




Yes and no about the lockwork being the same with the new ones. A number of years ago S&W started using Metal Injection Molded (MIM) parts for the lockwork, as opposed to the old machined parts. MIM parts are less expensive to make than machining parts from solid steel. Also, the configuration of some of the parts has changed from the old machined parts. Volumes have been written about MIM parts vs machined parts, I ain't gonna start talking about it here.

Just to give you a taste, here are the parts inside a Model 17-3 made in 1975. Mostly machined from solid stock.

View attachment 1143131




Here are the parts inside a Model 617-8, made in 2003. Most of the parts are MIM parts.

View attachment 1143132





Incorrect. Rifle barrel groove diameter for 44-40 was originally right around .427, although it varied all over the place. Groove diameter for 44 Russian, 44 Special, and 44 Magnum is .429. When I load 44-40 I use bullets that are .428 in diameter. So if we are going to round out to 2 decimal places, all of the above are 43 caliber.

Never too late!

I’ll leave the M&P on display a bit in my gun room. Figure out shooting later. Got a bunch of old Colts I need to shoot thru 1st. I’m rethinking that 1905 now, 32-20 is a cool looking round, would be cool to find a Winchester in 32-20! Let’s see how my Uber driving money is this week, might put a down payment on it. He also had a perfect condition .22 Mag S&W and a very good condition Police Positive.

 

[Mark_Mark]

Big Question… Do all N Frame look like the Register Magnum frame? I love the look of that RM gun

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

would be cool to find a Winchester in 32-20

Here is a Winchester Model 1892, a Smith and Wesson 32-20 Hand Ejector, and a Colt Police Positive Special, all chambered for 32-20.

 

[Mark_Mark]

Here is a Winchester Model 1892, a Smith and Wesson 32-20 Hand Ejector, and a Colt Police Positive Special, all chambered for 32-20.

View attachment 1143150

Jezz!!! one day for me!

 

[Jim Watson]

Big Question… Do all N Frame look like the Register Magnum frame? I love the look of that RM gun

The Registered Magnum, unregistered Magnum, .357 Magnum, so-called pre-27, and Model 27 have kept the same styling, a tapered barrel with checkered rib, topstrap, and sight base.
Grips and sights vary, later guns have wide hammer and trigger.

No other S&W has that checkered rib and most of the other Magnums have heavy barrels.

 

[Mark_Mark]

The Registered Magnum, unregistered Magnum, .357 Magnum, so-called pre-27, and Model 27 have kept the same styling, a tapered barrel with checkered rib, topstrap, and sight base.
Grips and sights vary, later guns have wide hammer and trigger.

No other S&W has that checkered rib and most of the other Magnums have heavy barrels.

LOVE that checkered RIB!!

I’m going to put that 1905 32-20 aside and until I find a Model 27 with the checkered ribs!!

 

[Mark_Mark]

The Registered Magnum, unregistered Magnum, .357 Magnum, so-called pre-27, and Model 27 have kept the same styling, a tapered barrel with checkered rib, topstrap, and sight base.
Grips and sights vary, later guns have wide hammer and trigger.

No other S&W has that checkered rib and most of the other Magnums have heavy barrels.

WOW! Not cheap at all… $1300 to $3,000+ oooh boy

 

[UncleEd]

I've read that starting in the 1950s Smith trigger
and hammers were stamped parts, not machined
from solid bars. This would be true of the
Model 17-3 shown by Driftwood Johnson.

 

[TacticalJanitor]

I have a 460V love that gun!!

I was looking at the 4-inch 460 today. Hmmm. I will eventually have one.

 

[Mark_Mark]

I was looking at the 4-inch 460 today. Hmmm. I will eventually have one.

reloader dream GUN! will shoot like 5 different cartridges

 

[Jim Watson]

You ought to see the old ads listing what could be shot in a .357 Magnum.
Everything from .38 Short Colt on up.

Now we have Internet searchers asking if it is safe to fire .38 Special +P in a .357 Magnum revolver.

 

[Mark_Mark]

You ought to see the old ads listing what could be shot in a .357 Magnum.
Everything from .38 Short Colt on up.

Now we have Internet searchers asking if it is safe to fire .38 Special +P in a .357 Magnum revolver.

.460 can do:
45 Scholfeild
45 Colt
454 Casule
.460 mag
probably missing a few

Now what can .357 Mag do? never knew this

 

[stonebuster]

Just the Tip! I really want to shoot it. Mabey I should pick up a another Pre 10 to shoot and wear. Do shooters/collectors have these debates in there head? I almost want to go ahead and put a few scuffs on it so I can bot think about it and shoot

Maybe pick a shooter grade pre-lock Model 10 to shoot the snot out of. You could get one for the price of a ThunderstruckI've got a couple of Model 10 trade ins I shoot regularly and delegate my pristine Model 15-2 Combat Masterpiece to occasional range trips. I bought two for $336/each and a Model 64 for $300 OTD a couple years ago. They get shot more than any other revolvers I own.

 

[Barbaroja]

Nice Smith mark! I’m not usually one to recommend not shooting a gun (too much) but With the cost of a police trade in model 10, I would consider buying another to shoot the snot out of. I told you about the one I got for 350 last month, some holster wear but almost zero turn line. Keep at it. I’m fling into Seattle next week. I may have to send you a pm for the name of your secret shop

 

[VMC]

bottle neck revolver round! wonder if they still make dies and brass for it. let me look

I have a set of Lee dies in 32-20. You just could not get carbide ones for the bottleneck brass, so lube is necessary. I use Starline brass and bought plenty a few years ago before the covid shutdowns. I have a good stock of lead bullets which in normal times were easy to find from most companies and small pistol primers which work fine in place of rifle primers in my revolver. Several companies still make single actions in 32-20 Winchester so I hope brass will be back in stock at Starline soon. My gun is a Colt Army Special double action revolver.