My black powder revolver chrono data

[SomebodyMakeRiderRepro]

Hello,
I've conducted chrono testing of my 8", pietta 1858 Remington and plan to do further research comparing it to my new 5,5" I picked up recently. I will post new results as they go, though it may take me some time to organise another chrono trip.

34 gr FFFg Schuetzen Black Powder
220gr .456 Kaido pure lead flat-nosed Bullet
1# 860 fps
2# 884 fps
3# 839 fps
4# 878 fps
5# 893 fps
6# 882 fps

avg velocity: 872 fps
avg energy: 372 ft-lbf
Similar to: .44 spl, standard pressure .45 ACP, 9mm

Notice: 34 grs of real black powder is as much as it will go into pietta 1858 chamber with flat-nosed 220gr Kaido bullet. Flat nosed bullets give best weight to volume ratio thus maximizing performance. I think stronger powders like Swiss or Old Eynsford could allow energies in excess of 450 ft.lbf similar to .357 through a 3" barrel.

I recorded the very last shot from my test and you can watch it here:

Recoil was significant for a black powder revolver but still pleasurable and controllable.

I did also a projectile comparison with a roundball and same powder charge:
34 gr FFFg Schuetzen Black Powder
143 grain .454 lead roundball
1# 964fps
2# 984fps
3# 980 fps
4# 967 fps

avg velocity: 973 fps
avg energy: 301 ft-lbf
Similar to: .38 spl +P

Recoil was significantly less.

Here's my test gun, 8" pietta 1858:


New gun to test, 5'5" sheriff another pietta 1858 to keep things consistent:



I hope you guys find these resources helpful.
Cheers,
Mike.

 

[Logan5579]

Great info, Thanks! Looking forward to seeing the data from the 5.5in sherriff

 

[Blackpowderwarrior]

Thanks for sharing brother. That data is gold

 

[Bibbyman]

The only gun I did any real chronograph testing was with a Dixie Yank 44 stub nose. I had an 8" barrel so swapped them out to compare. Not as extensive test but did show the dramatic difference in the barrel lengths.

 

[SomebodyMakeRiderRepro]

The only gun I did any real chronograph testing was with a Dixie Yank 44 stub nose. I had an 8" barrel so swapped them out to compare. Not as extensive test but did show the dramatic difference in the barrel lengths.

Hmm, 600fps is suprisingly low velocity with a 7,5" barrel.
For example with a 30 grain charge and a roundball in my 8" pietta I got as following:
1# 833
2# 863
3# 884

Try 30 grain charge, for whatever reason these guns lose velocity quickly when you go below 30 grains. I suspect it possibly has to do with powder compression heavily impacting velocity. With a 25 grain and even a wad you possibly are not compressing the powder that much and this results in so low velocities.
Anyways, cool little test. Thanks for sharing.
Cheers,
Mike

 

[Bibbyman]

Hmm, 600fps is suprisingly low velocity with a 7,5" barrel.

I noticed that it looked like you had the chronograph very close to the muzzle. I had the chronograph much further away. That isn't enough to explain the different results but I've been told having the chronograph too close will give false readings. But I have very limited experience using the chronograph.

 

[SomebodyMakeRiderRepro]

I noticed that it looked like you had the chronograph very close to the muzzle. I had the chronograph much further away. That isn't enough to explain the different results but I've been told having the chronograph too close will give false readings. But I have very limited experience using the chronograph.

My results were consistently reading in the range 800-900 fps. Erroneous results would be either inconsistent or absurd. As you can see, I used a cardboard to contain all the smoke and debris while the bullet easily went through. This way there was no interference with the chronograph.
When I tried shooting at a chronograph further away but with no cardboard I was getting about 3 times as many errors as closer but with the cardboard.
I am pretty sure the results were accurate and how close the chronograph was, was irrelevant.
Cheers,
Mike.

 

[Bibbyman]

Ah, yes. I see now that you were shooting through the boxes. I was told to use a cellophane barrier.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

That's a great power level/velocity from a 5.5, with the Kaido bullet. I bet it hits hard. Dang. Now I need a 6" NMA. !!

On your next trip, I'd be very interested is seeing any difference between 4fg and 3fg. Both by throwing the same charge by volume, and a increased charge by weight. You can get a little more 4fg in the chamber by weight, compared to 3fg.

I've heard of some chronograph testing where 4fg did not produce more velocity. I'm curious if that could be true.

 

[SomebodyMakeRiderRepro]

That's a great power level/velocity from a 5.5, with the Kaido bullet. I bet it hits hard. Dang. Now I need a 6" NMA. !!

On your next trip, I'd be very interested is seeing any difference between 4fg and 3fg. Both by throwing the same charge by volume, and a increased charge by weight. You can get a little more 4fg in the chamber by weight, compared to 3fg.

I've heard of some chronograph testing where 4fg did not produce more velocity. I'm curious if that could be true.

For this test I used 8" version. 5,5" is coming next when I will finally find time to hit the range with the whole setup and daylight. Will probably take a while.

Yes, Kaido hits hard, about 23% harder than your roundball with the same amount of powder behind it and thanks to its flat nose you can get about 5 more grains of powder behind than you would with 217 grain Johnson and Dow bullet.

I dunno about FFFFg, it burns much faster and creates greater peak pressure. I am pretty sure it would be fine with a round ball... but with that heavy bullet... I dunno. I am afrad I could blow up my gun. I've obtained a piece of pietta barrel and had it tested for hardness. It's basically mild steel or some low, low, low grade alloy steel. I don't know if it will held up to that kind of abuse

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Okay, yes some are not comfortable with 4fg. I think it's the "best" pistol powder, and have been shooting it in my Ubert 1862 under the LEE 130 grain bullet, in my old EMF 1860 under the LEE 200 grain bullet, and I have shot my Uberti NMA of Navy caliber with the Kaido, a modified Remington bullet, and a modified (flatter nose/metplat) Colt bullet which all weigh around 140 grains, give or take. I use 24 grains in my NMA of Navy Caliber, and in the 1860, and 15 grains in the 1862. Not really heavy charges.

It's (4fg) now what I use in my pistols, except for my single shot Lyman Plains Pistol. I've not noticed excessive recoil (a tiny bit more than 3fg) or any other indications of high pressure. Anyhow, that's all opinion. Nope, I don't want you blowing up your guns! But, opinion again, I think you'll need some Unique or Bullseye to do that. 4fg is still black powder after all.

What I can say is that in my pistols 4fg is noticeably more accurate, so there is something going on with the dynamics.

 

[SomebodyMakeRiderRepro]

Okay, yes some are not comfortable with 4fg. I think it's the "best" pistol powder, and have been shooting it in my Ubert 1862 under the LEE 130 grain bullet, in my old EMF 1860 under the LEE 200 grain bullet, and I have shot my Uberti NMA of Navy caliber with the Kaido, a modified Remington bullet, and a modified (flatter nose/metplat) Colt bullet which all weigh around 140 grains, give or take. I use 24 grains in my NMA of Navy Caliber, and in the 1860, and 15 grains in the 1862. Not really heavy charges.

It's (4fg) now what I use in my pistols, except for my single shot Lyman Plains Pistol. I've not noticed excessive recoil (a tiny bit more than 3fg) or any other indications of high pressure. Anyhow, that's all opinion. Nope, I don't want you blowing up your guns! But, opinion again, I think you'll need some Unique or Bullseye to do that. 4fg is still black powder after all.

What I can say is that in my pistols 4fg is noticeably more accurate, so there is something going on with the dynamics.

Hmmmm, I will probably need to buy a stainless cylinder then to do a test like this. Pietta's stainless cylinders are magnetic and should have a tad more tensile strength than their blued counterparts that are made of mild steel. Then I'd obviously start with a low charge of about 20 grains and work my way up grain by grain paying attention to excessive pressure and hammer bounce backs.

My worries start at charges in excess of 30 grains FFFFg and heavy 220 grain bullets. Though Schuetzen or Goex are on the lower end of the spectrum as far as energies go and the gun should be fine even with FFFFg. Energetic powders like Swiss or Olde Eynsford might be a whole different animal though.

Anyways, If I decide to buy a stainless cylinder, I'll do some testing of FFFFg in the future.

 

[Roverguy]

870 fps with a 220 grs flat nose is some proper shooting power! As you note, that’s 45acp territory. The numbers for the 143 grs RB are consistent with my own. Good to know about the Kaido.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

870fps with a 220 grain bullet is right up there. With today's 44mags and .357's it sounds tame, but it will leave a mark.

The Kaido is a great bullet. I've not shot it in a .44, but my Remington likes it in .36". I think it increases the whomp in a .36 especially, even if the energy figures don't show it.

 

[brewer12345]

Can you load the Kaido bullets with the loading lever on a pistol, or do they require off-gun loading? Are molds available? Accuracy vs. round ball?

 

[SomebodyMakeRiderRepro]

Can you load the Kaido bullets with the loading lever on a pistol, or do they require off-gun loading? Are molds available? Accuracy vs. round ball?

This particular bullet diameter is .456. Typical Pietta chamber is .447. You must put a decent force to get this bullet seated in that much undersized chamber. Loading on the gun would be a huge pain + you risk bending the loading lever linker. Also I had some trouble clearing the frame with no modifications but I didn't really try that hard to load it from the gun in the first place not to risk bending the loading lever.
I load it with an external loading stand.

Yes, molds are available directly from this fellow:

[email protected]
VKV Products & Services
254 Betsy Ross Drive
Orangeburg, N.Y.10962
U.S.A.

As to the accuracy, with this bullet the gun shoots a tad high but I see no visible increase / decrease in group size compared to roundballs.

 

[1KPerDay]

That's impressive. The 220 grain bullet makes a huge difference in energy obviously, as does the good powder.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I don't know the dimensions, but in my .36" the Kaido loads easily, and shoots accurately.

 

[armoredman]

Nifty. I have only used round ball, though the 1860 came with a tiny brass mold that will do a single conical bullet. I might try this with my old ProChrono, if it still works.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

The reason I switched over to bullets is that it's just a quicker, easier reload for me when I'm "in the field" wandering around the mountains. Eliminates using a wad, or doing anything else like grease to lower the chances of a chain-fire too. Just less "stuff" to fiddle with.

 

[Blackpowderwarrior]

When loaded with roundball the 36 is the perfect Varmint Getter but when loaded with 130 grain conical it behaves as if it's whole different animal.

I've never shot the Kaido but do shoot the 130 grain Lee Conicals and they shoot great

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Hmmmm, I will probably need to buy a stainless cylinder then to do a test like this. Pietta's stainless cylinders are magnetic and should have a tad more tensile strength than their blued counterparts that are made of mild steel. Then I'd obviously start with a low charge of about 20 grains and work my way up grain by grain paying attention to excessive pressure and hammer bounce backs.

My worries start at charges in excess of 30 grains FFFFg and heavy 220 grain bullets. Though Schuetzen or Goex are on the lower end of the spectrum as far as energies go and the gun should be fine even with FFFFg. Energetic powders like Swiss or Olde Eynsford might be a whole different animal though.

Anyways, If I decide to buy a stainless cylinder, I'll do some testing of FFFFg in the future.

I just thunk of something. If 4fg poses any danger, why are the revolvers not marked "3fg or larger Black Powder Only". ? Or: "Warning Do Not Use 4fg"? And, 777 is quite a bit more "energetic" than 4fg. But no one warns against using it. (except me, as my one and only chain-fire was with 777, blew the front sight, and the loading lever stud off the barrel) Also, in the little booklets and user manuals that come with the guns, there are no warnings about using 4fg. Okay just asking for a friend.

 

[Lyle]

I’ve posted this before. I think the 4f debate is a new one. 1975 Lyman Black Powder book.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Thanks for posting that Lyle, Sam Fadala devotes a lot of time to his black powder stuff. I've been playing with 4 f in my revolvers for a short time now and I doubt I will go back to 3 f. It certainly wakes them up.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Thank you.