The Deer Hunter
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If money is such a concern, what are/were you doing with 25 rifles?
My complaint against milsurp rifles
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If money is such a concern, what are/were you doing with 25 rifles?
ChronoCube
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If it's a Russian M91/30 from 1942 or earlier, it most likely DID see some action, given how desperately they needed weapons. 2 men to 1 rifle, anyone?
.38 Special
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My experience has been that milsurp owners/collectors are usually "financially challenged" and, in their heart-of-hearts, would really rather have a Weatherby. (Or whatever.) That explains not only the extravagant lies (MOA with irons and surplus ammo, from a 100 year old rifle made by peasants) but also the misplaced populism -- "You rich boys with your fancy factory rifles just don't understand!"
As for the OP, I absolutely understand. If I could go back in time, I would have passed on 90% of the guns I bought, and put that money toward a very few, very high quality pieces.
As for the OP, I absolutely understand. If I could go back in time, I would have passed on 90% of the guns I bought, and put that money toward a very few, very high quality pieces.
jimmyraythomason
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Your experience seems to be lacking,.38 Special. If it weren't for the title of this thread,I would consider that to be trolling.
Deckard
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I generally live by the rule: not all milsurps are good rifles, but some good rifles are milsurps.
R.W.Dale
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A big plus one
hell at one point this described me perfectlly but at least I'm man enough to admit as much.
jimmyraythomason
Member
When did this thread degenerate into attacks on mil-surp collectors? perhaps we should open a "what I dislike about gunsnobs" thread?
MCgunner
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Heck, I've always been a cheap sob, but some factory rifles are cheaper than most milsurps now days. I don't feel the low budget hunter is the main market for milsurps anymore. Didn't used to be that way, but milsurps are in shorter supply and the demand has gone up. I'll leave mosins out of it, but have you seen the price on a K98 lately? A Savage 110 is cheaper, not better built, but cheaper and accurate, and will do the job if hunting is the job, more cheaply because it's already set up for optics and will require no gunsmithing. But, some folks like collecting milsurps. I kinda like the few I have and like to shoot 'em. They are an extravagance, actually, didn't really buy 'em for hunting or any real use, though one of the SKSs has killed a deer and is one heck of a handy truck gun. Hell, I've dumped 1.5 times the price of that SKS in a stock and do dads for a scope and such. If I was being cheap, I'd have kept it like I bought it. But, I just wanted to dude it up a bit. The camo stock is cool and gives me a better length of pull. It was set up for a five foot NVA regular, had the length of pull of a Daisy Red Rider. The ambi safety is necessary as I shoot left handed. The 5 round mag lets me carry the gun more comfortably in the field. I did take the scope and mount off and I'm back to using it as a truck gun. It really is better in that roll. I have several commercial hunting rifles to hunt with.
I think ol' .38 needs to loosen up and join the fun, frankly.
It's just whatever makes you happy.
I think ol' .38 needs to loosen up and join the fun, frankly.
It's just whatever makes you happy.
.38 Special
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Oops, I did forget one other characteristic of the milsurp fan: the kneejerk defensiveness any time someone points out that cheap, abused, worn out old military rifles are cheap, abused, worn out old military rifles. Now, I'm totally cool with folks who are into cheap, abused, worn out old military rifles, but it doesn't take a whole lot of nonsense about "MOA" and "better made than current commercial rifles" before folks are going to start poking fun. Seriously: go back to the start of the thread and read with an open mind, if you can. The OP makes the pretty innocuous point that he kind of wishes he hadn't spent a bunch of money on a bunch of cheap military rifles, and wishes he had instead saved his money for a few very high quality pieces. And the milsurp fans jumped on him as though he'd admitted a crush on Dianne Feinstein. This is not the usual "Each to his own" kind of deal; this is call-a-psychologist level insecurity.
Ol' .38 is quite interested in joining the fun via a 100 year old Mauser. This particular Mauser has been somewhat modified by an obscure firm named Rigby, but its military roots are clear. It is not, unfortunately, available for the usual $150. Darn.
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jimmyraythomason
Member
.38 Special ,I sold or traded my Weatherbys, Remington 700s and Winchester Featherweight , I was unimpressed with them (although my Remington Model 7 in 7mm-08 was a cut above) I did a comparison of accuracy (not intentionally,I was just sighting them in)between a Remmy 700 BDL-DM in 7mm-08 and my Gew98 made in 1899 8x57mm. The Mauser beat the Remmy which promptly was traded for a S&W 686.Quality mil-surp collecting is much more expensive,as a rule,accessories included than buying a few high end hunting rifles.
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What is it with these fights lately? Hot weather, economy, everyone on edge and ready to argue their opinion? There's a similar thread about the Mini14, with one individual in particular apparantly harboring negative opinions towards anyone who might prefer wood-and-steel over plastic-and-aluminum.
Just because someone has a different interest than you doesn't make them stupid, compensating for something, or jealous that you can afford expensive guns and they can't.
I have several very nice hunting rifles that I never shoot because I haven't hunted in years. I've shot (and could afford) high-tech decked out ARs, but they just don't do anything for me. If those kind of guns are your thing, enjoy.
I like the old surplus rifles because they're old and interesting. My interest, my opinion. Some folks collect stamps. Some folks restore old cars. Some folks spend time posting on forums, arrogantly insisting that their perspective is the only one that counts.
Just because someone has a different interest than you doesn't make them stupid, compensating for something, or jealous that you can afford expensive guns and they can't.
I have several very nice hunting rifles that I never shoot because I haven't hunted in years. I've shot (and could afford) high-tech decked out ARs, but they just don't do anything for me. If those kind of guns are your thing, enjoy.
I like the old surplus rifles because they're old and interesting. My interest, my opinion. Some folks collect stamps. Some folks restore old cars. Some folks spend time posting on forums, arrogantly insisting that their perspective is the only one that counts.
My milsurps, numerous Mausers, Enfields, Mosin, Arisaka, Steyrs, go right along with my modern AR's, FN, MSAR, HK's, AK's. I own both for different reasons and money isn't one of the prime reasons for either. And for whoever thinks that milsurps are an economical option, it's very easy to put a good amount of money in restoring a milsurp, and shooting them can be more expensive in the long run. Spend a little time sending some 8x56r or 7.62x45 down range and you see the bucks adding up really quickly.
Yeah, for some on both sides of the coin it's about the money, and for some it's always about the money. But, trying to pin the almighty buck on this one and making it a "have and have not" thing is just plain silly and way off base. I'm so tired of that kind of thing as it invades every aspect of our lives. Haves and have nots....blah, blah, blah. It's so Obama.
Yeah, for some on both sides of the coin it's about the money, and for some it's always about the money. But, trying to pin the almighty buck on this one and making it a "have and have not" thing is just plain silly and way off base. I'm so tired of that kind of thing as it invades every aspect of our lives. Haves and have nots....blah, blah, blah. It's so Obama.
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telomerase
Member
CZguy, those are some really beautiful cheap, abused, inaccurate, obsolete worn out old military rifles!
minutemen1776
Member
.38 Special, are you saying you actually have an old military Mauser, albeit not a cheap one? If so, you've taken me halfway to the point I want to make. As I said earlier in the thread, the price point of milsurps do make them attractive to cheapskates and the financially challenged. However, that's just one side of the coin. For those who cross over into collecting milsurps, the price tag goes up considerably.
Like a lot of milsurp guys, I was introduced to them through a cheap Mosin Nagant and a Russian-capture Kar98k Mauser. Since then, though, I've focused on WW2 rifles and have tried to find representative pieces from several different nations that fought in the war. I've found that, even though whatever is on today's surplus market (and therefore relatively plentiful) is cheap enough, things that were imported decades ago or hardly at all can be quite expensive. Also, finding a specimen that is neither abused nor worn out (to use your words) also causes the price tag to escalate. Yet, I try to buy the best milsurps I can locate, precisely because I do not want low quality milsurps.
I guess that's my main point. Though a lot of milsurps are junk, worn-out, abused, Bubba'd, etc., those are not what I want. Some milsurps, if you look for them, are authentic, are in good condition, function fine, and are good representations of a period of history. And despite the fact that these milsurps cost the most, they are the ones I want because they are quality pieces.
jimmyraythomason
Member
Some of the most sought after mil-surps aren't even military surplus. They are soldier bring backs(with the appropriate documentation). Military,yes,surplus,no. If you find a Gew.98 from the first world war with all matching numbers you indeed have a prize. Or a k98k with all proofs and waffenamps intact or an Arisaka without defacement. There are SO many things that determine the value of an old war dog and then there are the accessories. A good original K98 sling goes for over $100. A cheap hobby it ain't.
Expertowgunner
Member
I used to be a Mil-surp hater and never understood why people liked those ugly nagants and enfields. Well, its been 4 years since my first nagant and i understand now why people like them. For me its the history, the character, and the beauty of something thats rugged and practical. These weapons were wielded by many people during the last couple great wars and many people fought and died with them. I buy to honor those who sacrificed so much for their ideals and their countries. My police tactical 308. remmy has its place just like my k98 and my nagant. Bought for different reasons but loved all the same
DammitBoy
Member
I can't stop buying milsurps or new production rifles and pistols. I want them all.
I actually don't like my K31. The beechwood stock looks bad, the ergonomics make my hand hurt, the straight pull system is no faster than my bolt-action Swedish Mauser, and it's hard to chamber my reloads without slamming the bolt home.
It was, however, only $109.
It was, however, only $109.
BunnyPuncher
Member
stevekl: make sure your sizing die actually touches the shell holder at the bottom of the downstroke. That problem should go away.
.38 Special
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No, I don't have a military surplus Mauser. I would happily own one reworked a hundred years ago by one of the famous British companies, but they tend to run to five figures. Even a nice Springfield done up by Sedgely or similar will set you back at least a grand. By mentioning it, I'd intended to point out that the claims of milsurp superiority don't stand up to the fact that any reputable rifle maker of the last century charged many times the original milsurp price to turn one into a firearm that the sportsman/hunter/target shooter could make use of.
To be honest, I'm guilty of equating "milsurp" to the cheap Nagants, SKSs, etc. I'm actually pretty enthusiastic about better quality rifles like the Garand, Springfield, certain Mausers, etc. But those are usually not the rifles, in my experience, mentioned by the "My milsurp is MOA and I got rid of all my commercial rifles because they weren't as good" crowd.
Fair enough. I hereby amend my posts to include only those folks who are buying $99 rifles from the rack at Big 5, and 80 year old "battle packs" of corrosive ammo to go with them, and then writing "attack" posts directed toward anyone who doesn't accept that these are MOA rifles and better made than any of the Remington/Winchester/Weatherby junk.
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