my insight on prices on ammo

[Queen_of_Thunder]

It seems like I can never give an opinion without having to write a book to explain it to the people who misunderstand it and by the way I also had stocked up long before the panic.

Stocked up or not I also despise the scalpers and will not give them one penny of my money. I also set a limit on how much ammo I need and when I reach that limit I will stop buying. I have often left ammo for someone else because I felt I have enough for now.

Queen of Thunder, I was not talking about Scout only the small minded people who are so paranoid of the government that they went out and started buying up all the ammo after Newtown happened. They are the ones who started the whole ammo shortage and set things into motion. They are the root cause of the ammo shortage.

The root cause of this shortage in no particular order are:

AR style 22 rifles
22lr conversion mods for semi auto pistols
government attempts to curtail 2nd Amendment Rights
20 million new shooter
Shadow/stealth sites run by distributors. major retailers and LGS's to charge higher prices without upsetting their customer base.


It is not the individual picking up that box of ammo or two after standing in line for several hours but its those businesses who have diverted ammunition stock to collect higher prices that they couldn't get in their shops without losing their customers.

 

[Queen_of_Thunder]

Some of us have been around this game for a lot longer than others. We have been though this multiple times before. Every time there was a call for sweeping anti-gun legislation, every time a liberal got elected, every time there was a mass shooting, the 1986 pre and post ban...........
Some of us learned after the first couple times and we stepped up our buying and stockpiled during the good times. We were called hoarders, some people thought we were being ridiculous.............. But, the next time it happened (as it always does) we were prepared.
Each time this happened, we had numerous threads about the ammo shortage/primer shortage/magazine ban/rifle ban............... Names were called, people blamed each other for the problem,..........................

The point is this: these shortages happen periodically. Things are going to be banned. There are going to be threats to our rights. Lefties are going to continue to be elected. If you want to participate in this hobby you are going to have to learn this lesson and do something about it. If you are the guy that buys ammo on the way to the range, or you buy a box of ammo before hunting season........ You are going to be doing without now and then. The guys that stacked it high and stacked it deep will just keep on like nothing happened. If you make that choice, don't put down those of us who didn't.

Can I get an AMEN.




BTW I've learned my lesson and I will never be caught short again.

 

[scout777]

sorry guys did not means to create such a fuss was just giving opinoion on what I see . am buying what I can to beat price increase 5 years from now will be on fixed income by that time would like to be able to shoot when I retire I buy for myself not to sell I have alittle extra money now for I do not take money from what my family need to survive day to day. if that happen I stop shooting

 

[Mr. T]

I6Turbo - Not trying to bring politics into this, but this current administration has stated that they would use environmental regulations as a "back door" method to make gun ownership too expensive for us to actively participate in the 2nd amendment. They won't stop your ownership of a gun, but without ammunition all you have is an expensive club! This latest move even eventually catches up with those who reload. Some people have ingenious ways to create lead bullets from other sources...but eventually it will catch up to us all. Personally I believe that this constitutes a national security crisis to the likes haven't bee seen since prior to WWII! Good luck to all and God Bless.

 

[Jackal]

The ammo shortage as I see it is a bunch of small minded paranoid people started buying up all the ammo they could find creating a shortage. Then came the people who want to profit from the shortage, buying up all the ammo they could get their hands on. Then selling it at higher prices to the paranoid people, who are too scared to wait for prices and supply to come back to normal.

This is capitalism. This is what Americans fight for everyday to uphold. This is freedom. Its not usually about what most people *can afford, its about what most people *want to afford. Substitute that cable box or satellite tv, $120 cell phone bill, cigarettes, booze, internet, eat outs, $6 coffee's, gadgets, vices and luxuries. Instead, set some of that money aside to buy ammo. Most everything is back to normal now anyway, except rimfire. Remember, we have the right to keep and bear arms, but shooting is a luxury.

 

[LightningMan]

I know the economics of supply & demand, but for the future of shooting sports and new gun owners/shooters, prices for ammunition has to be affordable. This helps get more folks into shooting sports and activities which hopefully increases NRA members to adds more political clout to our side. IMO if you can't enjoy spending time going to the range with out breaking the bank, fewer and fewer people will continue to shoot, and many will drop out of their range memberships, NRA memberships, which weakens our side and strengthens the opposition. I know this post doesn't really solve anything but something to think about. LM

 

[peacebutready]

I think there is some scheming going on at the manufacturer/wholesale/retail level.

 

[teetertotter]

You might have a point peace....I think the scheming is at the mfg level right now. The oil companies have been doing it for several years now. Gas stations in your city all with the same pricing....... Some ammo mfgs say they are expanding mfg to meet demand??? Lets see how this sets 6 months from now.

All I know is I got a case of my Aquila Match Rifle in September after being on order in January with my LGS. Next month I will have another case on order with the same LGS and if arrives by September, I will be in could shape again. You just have to plan ahead during these times with hopes the Distributer receives and can ship to the retailer for the specific customer.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

You know this name calling needs to stop. Scout you are behaving and acting in a logical and rational manner. People who call you names are just flat out wrong.

This.

Buy all you wish, scout777. One cannot reasonably argue against your logic for doing what you're doing. Buy now to support your future shooting needs all you wish. Or buy later. Or buy both now AND later. Do what you think you have to do to support your personal needs.

sorry guys did not means to create such a fuss was just giving opinoion on what I see . am buying what I can to beat price increase 5 years from now will be on fixed income by that time would like to be able to shoot when I retire I buy for myself not to sell I have alittle extra money now for I do not take money from what my family need to survive day to day. if that happen I stop shooting

Quit apologizing. You owe none of us any apologies for doing what you feel is necessary to support your needs in retirement. We ain't you...and it's mighty rude to step in and make a character judgement call for something like this.

So stock up all you wish against your future needs and enjoy your retirement when it comes.

 

[444]

"I know the economics of supply & demand, but for the future of shooting sports and new gun owners/shooters, prices for ammunition has to be affordable. "

BS

Why is it that every hobby I am involved in, people think we have to beg new people to become involved, we have to lower standards, price fix or whatever to ensure that the hobby continues.

No we don't.

Did anyone beg you to get involved in the shooting sports ? I didn't think so.

Second, what is affordable ?
You know what you have been used to paying. That is what you are basing everything on. If someone buys their first guy today, and buys their first ammo today, todays prices are their normal.


Lastly, it doesn't seem to me that most people DO understand what is being said here.
If scalpers are selling all the ammo they can get their hands on for what you consider GROSSLY inflated prices, then by definition the ammo is worth more than that price. That is the new price. That is what ammo costs today. This is how prices are determined in a free economy. Something is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for it.
Period.
You can talk about the good old days. You can tell people what ammo "should" cost. But you are completely, 100% wrong. That ammo is worth precisely what someone is willing to pay for it. IF person "X" has a pallet of .22LR ammo bricks and sells every one of them at a gun show for $100 each, then that is what they are worth. Your made up price means zip.

If someone else decides to sell their ammo for a fraction of that price, that's up to them.

Note that IF both senarios are going on at the same time, all the ammo is being sold anyway. The ammo shortage didn't change either way. The price of ammo is what someone is willing to pay and not a penny more. In the above senario, people are still buying all the ammo they can get, therefore the price is still too low.

 

[Mike1234567]

^^^ I quit shooting, for the most part. When availability is excellent and prices are lower then I'll first add to my stockpile. After that I'll start shooting again while continuing to add to my stockpile. If another shortage occurs driving prices up then I'll pair back my shooting again. I'm not a wealthy man.

 

[DJW]

To those who clamor for prices to be raised as a solution I offer the following: Before the 2008 election I routinely bought bricks(500 rnds)of Federal Champion 510 for $6.00 at Academy sports here in Texas. Most recently the price was just about $.05 for each round! That is 400% increase which certainly exceeds the rise in copper, brass, and other components. Just how expensive does it need to get to please you economic geniuses?
To add insult to injury ALL of the internet sites I routinely used over the last 25 years for components are OUT OF STOCK on powder and primers.
My conclusion is that somehow a perfect storm has created an extreme shortage of ammo and lord knows higher prices have not solved anything.
Stay calm and favor center. Best wishes for a happy new year.

 

[Mike1234567]

To those who clamor for prices to be raised as a solution I offer the following: Before the 2008 election I routinely bought bricks(500 rnds)of Federal Champion 510 for $6.00 at Academy sports here in Texas. Most recently the price was just about $.05 for each round! That is 400% increase which certainly exceeds the rise in copper, brass, and other components. Just how expensive does it need to get to please you economic geniuses?
To add insult to injury ALL of the internet sites I routinely used over the last 25 years for components are OUT OF STOCK on powder and primers.
My conclusion is that somehow a perfect storm has created an extreme shortage of ammo and lord knows higher prices have not solved anything.
Stay calm and favor center. Best wishes for a happy new year.

To piggy-back on that in bold/red: Remember when the Hunt brothers manipulated the silver market back in the 80's? Eastman Kodak raised the prices of their film by a HUGE percentage citing the increase in the cost of silver. After some investigating I discovered that their increase in silver cost was about 6 cents per roll of 110 size 24 exposure color negative film. After silver prices fell back Kodak did not lower the prices of their film. Big surprise.

Granted, photo film is not ammo but the concept is the same... increase wholesale prices FAR beyond increases in manufacturing costs... and the manufacturer blames some outside influence MANY TIMES the true increase in costs. The same goes for shipping costs vs. increased fuel costs... it doesn't quite match up.

I get tired of the deceitful lies. I'd rather they just raise the costs and stop with the excuses. I hate lies and deception.

 

[444]

"I get tired of the deceitful lies. I'd rather they just raise the costs and stop with the excuses. I hate lies and deception."

Can you give me a link or something where ammunition manufactuers raised the wholesale price of ammo
And if there was an increase, who said it was due to the cost of the raw materials used to manufacture it ?

Who lied ? Where and when did they lie ?


Around here the problem is GETTING .22LR ammo.
When you see it in a major retail store the price hasn't gone up significantly.
Maybe there is something I am missing ?

 

[Mike1234567]

"I get tired of the deceitful lies. I'd rather they just raise the costs and stop with the excuses. I hate lies and deception."

Can you give me a link or something where ammunition manufactuers raised the wholesale price of ammo
And if there was an increase, who said it was due to the cost of the raw materials used to manufacture it ?

Who lied ? Where and when did they lie ?


Around here the problem is GETTING .22LR ammo.
When you see it in a major retail store the price hasn't gone up significantly.
Maybe there is something I am missing ?

444... I don't know. All I have is my past experiences with people and corporations. I was piggy-backing on an earlier post referencing very large increases in retail prices vs. relatively small incremental increases in manufacturing costs... blaming increased lead and copper costs for example. Yes, those increased costs are there but I sincerely doubt the numbers add up regarding end costs. Manufacturers often "exaggerate" increased costs and blame outside or third-party influences. They do it because no one ever investigates... and they NEVER provide true verifiable METRICS. I did my research 35 years ago, with Eastman Kodak for example. I don't have the energy to research current ammo manufacturers. If anyone really wants to know... and will put in the time/effort... I can nearly guarantee they'll reveal some deceit.

 

[irl104]

Buy and store as often as you can. I buy now once a week while grocery shopping.

 

[Mike1234567]

Buy and store as often as you can. I buy now once a week while grocery shopping.

As 444 stated... it's not there to buy. My local WM has .22LR maybe 2-3 days per week and I must be there at 7AM every day to have any chance of buying any. Also, it's nearly always 50rnd boxes with a 3 box limit so the most I can buy is 150rnds. That's about 500rnds per week at best and fuel/vehicle costs (per week) would be approximate $50. That makes .22LR (bought here at WM) about 12 cents per round.

EDIT (time): And that doesn't count the 60 minutes per round trip. No thanks. I'll back-order it online and wait for it.

 

[444]

Mike: I personally haven't found any big increases in prices at the retail level. The only price increases I have seen are people who bought at retail and are now scalping the ammo at a flea market or a gun show.
If you are lucky enough to find ammo at a big retailer, the price is what I would consider normal (pre-panic). It may be a little bit higher, but not enough that I noticed.
The problem for me is that I seldom see it in a large retail store. That isn't to say never: I have purchased .22LR at various stores around here at reasonable prices but it is just a matter of luck to be in there when they actually have it in stock. As an example, I was in a Cabellas store and was standing in the ammo isle when they brought out a pallet of .22LR. There was a limit but I got mine. Similar things have happened to me over the last couple years. Just luck that I happened to be there when they had it. It was quickly gone.
But, the point is that I haven't seen the manufacturers raise their prices significantly. And I haven't seen large retail stores raise their prices significantly.

I have a stockpile of .22 and I was shooting today. But, I am afraid I won't be able to replace it. So I have been shooting far more centerfire stuff than I normally would simply because I can get all that I want. I am a handloader and I can get bullets, powder, and primers. I have been shooting far more 9mm, .38, and .45 ACP than I would if I could buy all the .22 I want. I actually enjoy shooting .22s more than anything else. For years I loved to shoot big bore handguns, but over the last 10 years or so I have found that I like the .22s more than anything else and one of the reasons WAS that I could shoot as much as I wanted and not worry about it. Those days may be gone forever.

 

[godale]

I know the economics of supply & demand, but for the future of shooting sports and new gun owners/shooters, prices for ammunition has to be affordable. This helps get more folks into shooting sports and activities which hopefully increases NRA members to adds more political clout to our side. IMO if you can't enjoy spending time going to the range with out breaking the bank, fewer and fewer people will continue to shoot, and many will drop out of their range memberships, NRA memberships, which weakens our side and strengthens the opposition. I know this post doesn't really solve anything but something to think about. agreed

 

[godale]

I know the economics of supply & demand, but for the future of shooting sports and new gun owners/shooters, prices for ammunition has to be affordable. This helps get more folks into shooting sports and activities which hopefully increases NRA members to adds more political clout to our side. IMO if you can't enjoy spending time going to the range with out breaking the bank, fewer and fewer people will continue to shoot, and many will drop out of their range memberships, NRA memberships, which weakens our side and strengthens the opposition. I know this post doesn't really solve anything but something to think about. LM

agreed

 

[samort457]

Can I get an AMEN.

AMEN!

 

[1911 guy]

Sit down with your local paper and peruse the business section. Look at commodity prices. All the component metals that a cartridge is made of are up in price. What does this do to the cost of the end product? Hint: It doesn't go down. My "stockpiling" is going to allow me to continue shooting and hunting into my retirement when I'm on a fixed income and the "normal" price for .22LR is 25 cents a round.

 

[Art Eatman]

In another life, I was a cost estimator for engineering projects. I hawk-eyed commodity and materials prices.

"It'll cost more, next year," pretty much became a mantra. So, for reloading components, I've been lazily stockpiling for decades. No panic, no gigantic accumulation--but enough for several years of shooting. It's been a cost thing, not a political thing.

As far as today's world of ammo, I note that Remington is expanding their manufacturing operation in Arkansas. A brand-new corporation expects to begin production in 2014 in one of the Carolinas. Hornady, et al, are increasing their production.

The lead for bullets comes mostly from recycling operations which use car/truck batteries. The Carolina plant closure is irrelevant to bullet manufacture.

Count NICS checks, and figure that of those tens of millions during recent years, many are new shooters. Here at THR--and at other gun sites--we commonly recommend .22s for first rifles for novices. That means an increasing demand, even without stockpiling. IOW, we're our own worst enemies.

 

[varanid]

As bad as .22's gotten to find, I'm debating buying a 38 single action to teach my wife to shoot with. Ammo's pricier but at least I can FIND it.

 

[xfyrfiter]

Part of the problem also has to be the "just in time" supply system that we all have been living with for a few years now. I can remember when we ordered tackle once per year, and only reordered if we ran out. Now we order once a week, and don't stock any back, it seems more efficient on the surface, but the prices all had to raise to pay for the extra freight, and when we run out, the customer will have to buy something else or wait.