Gordon
Member
I too fitted a nice board stock to my 1920 commercial .30 Luger . It is mega fun to shoot at 50 yards now
My Luger Display
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Dudemeister
Member
I'm pretty sure it's not a police model, because it's missing the sear safety that went on all the police guns. This gun is a real mishmash, and was refinished to boot.
Dudemeister
Member
You realize that attaching that stock to the Luger technically turns it into an SBR, and unless you pay the gov. $200 for that "special" stamp, you're sporting an illegal rifle.I too fitted a nice board stock to my 1920 commercial .30 Luger . It is mega fun to shoot at 50 yards now
The problem is that the original "plank" stocks were only offered on the Ariller (8") and Navy (6") Lugers. If you had one of those, then the stock (original or repro) would be acceptable. But your 4" Luger was never issued with a stock. Re-barreled Lugers are not acceptable either, under the NFA rules. Sorry...
Dudemeister
Member
Where did you get the carbine? That's freaking awesome, but I can't see spending $15K+ for one. But you 've got good taste, I'll say that
.FWIW, I'd put that carbine on display all by itself. It deserves it's own case. Do you have the original stock? I'd love to see more/detailed photos pf that puppy.
NIGHTLORD40K
Member
Can you cite a written provision which states that rebarreled Artillery or Navy pistols are not exempt?
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/if-...shoulder-stock-does-constitute-possession-nfa
The ATF website states certain stocked handguns such as original Lugers are are exempt. It does not say "certain Lugers" are exempt.
Although, somewhat contradictorily, very specific models are listed here-
www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/p-5300-11-firearms-curios-or-relics-listpdf/download?destination=file/2026/download
Section 3 lists Artillery and Naval Lugers (whether sold commercially or for military issue) as exempt from the NFA if accompanied by a correct type stock. It specifically states that Naval Lugers may have altered barrel lengths, but does not address that issue either way for the Artillery.
Here, the ATF clarifies that modern reproduction stocks are acceptable substitutes for original examples-
http://www.lugerforum.com/BATF.html
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indy1919a4
Member
Oh Gosh guys please do not ruin this beautiful thread with a bunch of legal mumble jumble that will go no where...
Because the ATF has rules that go all over the place on that damn stock.
I tell you what lets focus on some fun.. Maybe some of you could explain how some Lugers got a year stamp of " 1917/18" what is the meaning of that please.
Be a pal, if you have a legal concern send a private message, No need to be a jail house lawyer here...
Because the ATF has rules that go all over the place on that damn stock.
I tell you what lets focus on some fun.. Maybe some of you could explain how some Lugers got a year stamp of " 1917/18" what is the meaning of that please.
Be a pal, if you have a legal concern send a private message, No need to be a jail house lawyer here...
Dudemeister
Member
I had originally made that statement from memory, as I remember a "heated" discussion I had with a gunshop owner over this. I just read that portion in question about Naval Lugers, and it's interesting that they mention only 1904 models (first year of Navy acceptance) are allowed barrel alterations, and then they also stipulate that Navy stock boards can't be interchanged with Artillery ones.
It's also interesting to note that American Eagle Lugers from 1900, 1902 and 1906 with 4" or 4.75" barrels and the original stocks are allowed. I wonder why they got that specific?
It's interesting that the ATF was actually willing to reson beyong the rigid rules and make a distinction between a collectable firearm and accessories:
"Our Firearms Classification Panel has examined your request and is their opinion that the above mentioned pistols equipped with currently made reproduction shoulder stocks which either duplicate or closely approximate the dimensions and configuration of the original stocks would also be primarily of interest to collectors and not likely be used as weapons."
I wonder if they would be so inclined as to allow ownership of Trommel magazine in states that prohibit magazines larger than 10 rounds. That would be cool, because I'd love to get one for my Artillery Luger.
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Dudemeister
Member
I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to be a dick about it, I was mentioning this, primarily because I had recently got into an argument over the same thing with a gunshop owner, that insisted that 'ANY" stock (original or repro) attached to the Luger would constitute an SBR. I had to do a bunch of reading and searching before I found that the ATF made an exception.
As for the 1917/18 date, that's not original. It was struck at a later time, even the font and size of the 18 is different. The 1920 is the Weimar Property mark, which means this was made in 1917, the reclaimed by the Weimar republic after the Great War.
I did a search and there's one just like this one on GunBroker, and their description states that it was "built in 1917 and completed in 1918". I don't know about that. I'll look some more into this.
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Dudemeister
Member
More information about dual-date pistols.
Best I can find about the dual-date (as opposed to double date/Weimar) guns, is that as a rule of thumb, the date on the top of the receiver is the date the receiver was manufactured which is stamped into the receiver before it's even hardened, and since Germany was batch manufacturing these guns by the hundreds of thousands, production inevitably ran from one year into another. Yet if most of the components were already made in one year (1917), but assembled early in the new year (1918), they simply maintained the original year of component production and serial numbering scheme for that year. Receivers/guns made in the new year and stamped with the new year, got serial numbers starting with 0001.
The serial numbers on these dual date guns, actually point to manufacturing dates late(r) in the year, not early during the first few weeks of the year.
Considering the scarcity of these dual date guns, it's speculated that toward the end of WWI, German factories were getting desperate to produce as many guns as they could, and started assembling guns using receivers that were either over-runs, or even originally rejected ones, which were then assembled with newer frames internals and then proofed and struck with the "assembly" date next to the original date.
Interestingly, a few other dates have come up, such as a 1916/17, 1917/20, and a 1918/1920. These are speculated to have been guns that were completed (assembled and proofed) during their originally stamped year, but were never finished (blued, serialized) until a few years later (1920).
If anyone can find additional information, I'd be very interested myself in learning a bit more about these really rare specimens.
Best I can find about the dual-date (as opposed to double date/Weimar) guns, is that as a rule of thumb, the date on the top of the receiver is the date the receiver was manufactured which is stamped into the receiver before it's even hardened, and since Germany was batch manufacturing these guns by the hundreds of thousands, production inevitably ran from one year into another. Yet if most of the components were already made in one year (1917), but assembled early in the new year (1918), they simply maintained the original year of component production and serial numbering scheme for that year. Receivers/guns made in the new year and stamped with the new year, got serial numbers starting with 0001.
The serial numbers on these dual date guns, actually point to manufacturing dates late(r) in the year, not early during the first few weeks of the year.
Considering the scarcity of these dual date guns, it's speculated that toward the end of WWI, German factories were getting desperate to produce as many guns as they could, and started assembling guns using receivers that were either over-runs, or even originally rejected ones, which were then assembled with newer frames internals and then proofed and struck with the "assembly" date next to the original date.
Interestingly, a few other dates have come up, such as a 1916/17, 1917/20, and a 1918/1920. These are speculated to have been guns that were completed (assembled and proofed) during their originally stamped year, but were never finished (blued, serialized) until a few years later (1920).
If anyone can find additional information, I'd be very interested myself in learning a bit more about these really rare specimens.
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Dudemeister
Member
Techically, there was no such thing as an American Eagle. The two 1907 .45 caliber Lugers that were submitted for the the US Army trials did not have any American Eagle crests on the receiver. In fact the receivers were not marked at all, and they were serialized as #1 and #2 internally. There were no other markings on them that I know of, other than perhaps a proof mark.
Pistol #1 was used and abused during the trial tests and its fate is unknown (may have been destroyed during the test). #2, the backup gun, survived, and in fact was sold for $1M in 1989 to an Indonesian Billionaire. The gun was auctioned off again in 2010, but this time it "only" fetched $430K.
Either way, the real thing is worth $500K. I doubt anyone with such a gun in his collection would let kids "have fun with it". Perhaps he had one of the Martz replicas or one of the newer Lugerman versions. Not that those are cheap either, either way you look at it, it's $7K+.
indy1919a4
Member
There are a few.. and they are beautiful
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2019/11/4/i-have-this-old-gun-american-eagle-luger/
indy1919a4
Member
Never had or even got to try one, always gravitated towards all American firearms but they are beautiful makes me think it would be fun to find a shooter. Once you get one do you find yourself acquiring a Major Strasser accent?
Better then Col Klinks I bet ya
brutus51
Member
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In my case it would be more like Sergeant Schultz because " I know nothing". 
Dudemeister
Member
I meant there's no such thing as a .45 caliber American eagle.
"Regular" (not .45 ACP) American Eagle guns were made from 1900 until 1912. Some 24,000 unit were made and sold in both .30 Luger and 9mm. So they're not as "rare" as people think.
What are rare, are the variants with the cartridge counter, and the "fat" barrel ones.
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indy1919a4
Member
Came across this on the way to other things, The Spanish LUR PANZER and where as this is just another post war attempt to make a 22 luger styled pistol.. But they marked it with a killer name. I would hate to find parts for these...
https://historiadelasarmasdefuego.blogspot.com/2017_08_13_archive.html?m=1
https://historiadelasarmasdefuego.blogspot.com/2017_08_13_archive.html?m=1
Dear Mr. Indy 1919a4 (and others): Thank you for your taking the time to look at my poor quality photo, your comment and interest. Please forgive me for not responding more quickly to your request. Unfortunately, I'm an electronic dinosauer, meaning that I'm lucky to have managed to post that photo, so trying to post more is probably pushing my luck (and certainly my ability). However, previously after countless efforts, I managed to post a couple of other photos here on this forum. The general focus is on the period from 1908 to 1918, but it's difficult for me not to offer any luger, earlier or later, a home when I find one. I can't offer more photos for you, but I can offer a little explanation. The photo is a group that I use for reference. This group generally includes two examples, one from early in the year and one from late in the year, for each year from 1908-09 to 1914; so there are 2 from 1908-09, 2 from 1910, 4 from 1911 (2 DWM & 2 Erfurt), 4 from 1912 (2 DWM & 2 Erfurt), 4 from 1913 (2 DWM & 2 Erfurt), and 4 from 1914 (2 DWM & 2 Erfurt). All of these are also unit marked, which is the most interesting aspect for me. Currently translating the unit history for one of the lugers not in this picture that was issued to one of the Ulanen regiments. Thanks again for your interest interest.
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indy1919a4
Member
Many many many thanks you can just call me Indy if you want...
Thanks for taking the time.. I concur with your interest on Unit marked weapons.. Such markings take a weapon one step closer to the owner and battle.. any time you care to share interesting ones for detailed show and tell I do think there are some Luger here fans who would love to see them..
and do not discount Electronic Dinosaurs. I have seen some documentaries in the TV and those rascals can flatten a city, take on an army and fight off giant Monkeys..
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nhcruffler
Member
Don't I know what to say other than Flippin Awesome!!! Collection.
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