my quest to learn how to use iron sights

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spacemanspiff

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so i take my mauser m98 to the range, right? and i run the target out to 100 yards. its a chore just to get the sights to settle on the target thats out that far. i know its a problem that rests with the shooter (i.e, me) because i read about other people shooting 3 inches or less groups at 100 yards over open sights.

does anyone have any suggestions (other than practice, that parts not so tough) on how i can improve my accuracy? i'd really like to get this iron sight thing down pat before i break down and buy a rifle and slap a scope on it.
 
Assuming that your eyes are in good shape , you have three things that you see ; rear sight, front sight and target. You should be focusing on the front sight. That means the rear sight and target will be slightly out of focus but that's not a problem. Quality and design of the sights will make a difference. "Traditional " sights you find on a hunting rifle ' bead front and V notch rear are poor because they give poor indexing both vertically and horizontally. Best are peep( square front, peep rear) or patridge, (square front and square notch rear). Good sights and accurate gun should be capable of getting 1" groups or better.
 
Start prone.

Seriously.

The first thing to do is establish a rock solid shooting position, with a natural point of aim that includes the target. :neener: If you need to pull away from that natural point of aim to stay on target, those biomechanical forces will affect the shot.

Attend to all of the fundamentals, grip, trigger control, breathing, follow through, and keep your eyes open.

Once you get prone down, proceed to seated and kneeling.

Shooting is a humbling thing to do. The moment you believe that your excellence has allowed you to transcend the fundamentals, the target will immediately inform you otherwise.

The trick is to make the fundamentals automatic, unconscious, and effortless.
 
Assuming that your eyes are in good shape , you have three things that you see ; rear sight, front sight and target. You should be focusing on the front sight. That means the rear sight and target will be slightly out of focus but that's not a problem. Quality and design of the sights will make a difference. "Traditional " sights you find on a hunting rifle ' bead front and V notch rear are poor because they give poor indexing both vertically and horizontally. Best are peep( square front, peep rear) or patridge, (square front and square notch rear). Good sights and accurate gun should be capable of getting 1" groups or better.


IOW, don't be disappointed when you can't hit much with acorn front and V-notch rear sights.

I'd advise using targets w/ orange bullseyes to help you with contrast.
 
FWIW, in the military on the M16 and M4 we teach shooters to place the tip of their nose on the charging handle of the weapon. This helps insure the same cheek weld and sight picture on every shot. Which is very important for accuracy and consistancy in open sight shooting.

Yes, I know there is not a charging handle on the Mauser, but I think I made my point.

Mark
 
Its all about getting a consistent sight picture. The sights and the target need to be aligned identically every time. Depending on the type of sights, that can be tough. Especially with a fat front post and big rear notch or V.

A 6 o'clock hold can help a lot, too. Here's a thread with more info on iron sights
 
In addition to what others have already mentioned, I'm assuming recoil is not an issue for you so you know there is nothing about the gun that is going to hurt you if you follow proper safety.

Before you do that initial shoot make SURE your gun is in a condition that will allow you to safely fire the weapon. I suggest spending a little money to let a qualified gunsmith check it out. www.surplusrifle.com is an excellent resource site for info on personal gun maintenance. Just refer to the section about your gun. Learn the gun's safety features and use them whenever possible.

Then learn the basics of your weapon, making sure it's inspected for safety, cleaned and lubed and proper cleaning and lubing following each shoot.

With that I would begin practicing in a supported postion such as bench resting the rifle on an elevation on a table or in a prone position with the fore end resting on a sturdy elevation at a range of no more than 50 yards for now.

Concentrate on achieving a 'group' with the bullets hopefully forming a suitable pattern (sometimes referred to as target printing).

When some shooters first start out and find they are hitting the target, say, 3" high and 2" left of the center of the target they automatically assume it's their fault such as poor trigger control, sight pattern, sight alignment, sight placement on the target, etc. When, in reality if you are getting a good and consistant pattern it's the result of the rear and front sight alignment as they are installed on the rifle or in trigger pull mechanics.

Learn to squeeze (pulling straight back) the trigger smoothly and slowly. When learning to shoot the firing of the rifle should come as a surprise to you. If not then you are anticipating the firing and that often leads to apprehension and jerking or pushing off of the trigger which will generally throw the round off center of the target.

If you have the chance take someone with you to the range who has a good command of shooting fundamentals. If not ask the range Officers if there is someone that could watch you and give you an honest appraisal of your techniques and any suggested changes.

Pracice, practice, practice.

Last, but not least, I profess that good shooting also requires a responsibility for proper gun conditions (basic inspection, cleaning, lubing, etc.) and knowledge of proper gun safety BEFORE you ever shoot a weapon.

Remember, you are legally responsible for the outcome when the bullet leaves the barrel.

There are many sites on the internet where you can find information on gun handling and safety.

I might have said things here that you already know and, if so, I appologize. I'm just trying to cover many bases.

I know I'll remember tons that I've forgotten after I log off but I hope this helps. I guess I shouldn't write a book and let others add their thoughts.:cool:
 
What Dave R. said. Consistent sight picture is the key to tight groups. Make sure it looks the same exactly before you start squeezing that trigger.
 
Spiff-

Have you considered trying a little Highpower competition? It teaches you to consistently maintain correct position and sight alignment. Alaska Rifle Club starts its Highpower shoots in April. They will even loan you an M1 for the matches. They are having their annual meeting friday night at 6:30 at the Birchwood clubhouse.

As far as the sights on your mauser, make sure that the sights are flat black, so there are no shiney spots to fool your eye. Center the front in the vee notch with the tops of the sights level. place the target black on top of the point of the front sight. Target and rear sight should be slightly fuzzy, keep your focus on the front sight. Be sure that from shot to shot the stock is in the same location on your shoulder, and your cheek is on the same spot on the stock.

You may want to go to www.jarheadtop.com and read the first four chapters of his book online. It deals with Service Rifle shooting, but the principles are the same.
 
FWIW, in the military on the M16 and M4 we teach shooters to place the tip of their nose on the charging handle of the weapon. This helps insure the same cheek weld and sight picture on every shot. Which is very important for accuracy and consistancy in open sight shooting.
I got a fairly impressive display of stars when I cheated up on the rear sight of a Mauser so I'd be a little cautious on that one. But a consistent cheek weld is important.

The CMP - Civilian Marksmanship Program (www.odcmp.com) sells the Army Marksmanship Unit Rifle Marksnanship manual for a few bucks. You can find the AMU pistol marksmanship guide online, as well as the Basic Rifle Marksmanship Manual for the M16 series.

Onward we stagger, and if the tanks come, may God help the tanks."
Interesting quote in light of what happened to the 1st Ranger Battalion....RLTFW
 
Here's an old Army trick. Get two boxes. Cut Vs in one, so you can lie a rifle in it, and the rifle will remain steady. Put the other box about 10 yards away, and staple a sheet of paper to the end.

Get a helper with a bullseye (about 1" diameter) on a stick and a hole in the center of the bullseye.

You lie down behind the rifle, with the sights on more or less the center of the paper. Direct your helper to move the bullseye until it looks dead on. When you say, "Mark," he uses a sharp pencil thorugh the center of the sight to make a dot on the paper.

The helper then moves the sight, and you go through the exercise again -- until you've got three dots on the paper. Then take a look at how close together they are.

This isolates the aiming portion of the equation from all the other factors -- steady hold, trigger squeeze, and so on.
 
The 3 dollar solution...

I just bought a small little lazer pointer today for about $3.

I'd probably duct tape it to the gun, when you've got it sighted in, press the button and see how close you are to the actual target.

Do that a few times, and you will discover (as others have said) your sight picture isn't consistant.

Also..

Don't bother with 100 yards until you can group them at 1" @ 25 yards. Then 30 yards, then 50 yards, then 75 and eventually, 100 yards.

I have the same problem with the V-notches on my Mauser.

I was looking to maybe getting Mojo Sights for them. They are suppose to be much easier to shoot.
 
I'll tell my little story..

I got my Mauser, took it to the range, and was shooting minute of Pie Plate as well.

"Must be something wrong with the sights"... I told myself.

When I went to visit Oleg and Betty, "Nice Mauser" said Betty.

(20 minutes later)..

"It groups pretty nice 1" groups.." :confused:

It does in HER hands... not mine... So I can't blame it on the rifle, gotta blame the shooter..
 
You lie down behind the rifle, with the sights on more or less the center of the paper. Direct your helper to move the bullseye until it looks dead on. When you say, "Mark," he uses a sharp pencil thorugh the center of the sight to make a dot on the paper.
I worked with an NCO that had been on the AMU for a while. He posted a piece of paper on the wall, made a small mark, then had me "load" a pencil in an M1911 and squeeze the trigger. The firing pin would push the pencil out the barrel and mark the paper. The idea was to get as small a group as possible.
 
Use a sling. I have never been able to shoot a rifle worth a darn until I attended my first basic rifle school. The requirements were a box-fed, semi-auto rifle, at least two 20 rd mags, and a sling. No optics were allowed, only iron sights. I brought my "high-speed/low-drag" assault sling, but was quickly instructed to use it only as a hasty-sling. Good thing it doubled as both.

A hasty sling used in the tight sling position is CRUCIAL to accurate aimed fire (for most of us.) After I started using the sling and learned proper shooting stances, I was able to shoot 100 yards standing, all into the "A" zone of a silhuoette target.
 
I seem to bang the same drum a lot, but I like the beat....

Shoot some Highpower. Don't worry about not being able to shoot now...do that for a year and you'll have your buddies buying you beers after every range trip.
 
wow....lots of tips! thanks guys, i knew i could count on ya'll.

want to know whats odd? on two seperate occasions, i put my very first shot dead center on the target. the first time was at 100 yards, and i knew it was a fluke. the second time was at 50 yards. so i know the gun is accurate.
the sights on the mauser are cumbersome, but not impossible. i'll have to wait until the snow clears out to try prone shooting. right now the snow is so high i dont think i could see the target from that position.

biff, i think i will check into that competition.

nothing wrong with minute of pie plate! ever see the neck/shoulder of an old bull moose? a lotta pie plates could fit in that area! :neener:

i passed on an opportunity to buy a bubbafied mauser that had a peep sight. i liked how the sight picture was, but couldnt justify spending right then.

it would also help if i kept to a regular shooting routine. instead i stop going for accuracy after a while and smile at making big puffs of snow in the backstop.
 
Almost Greek to me...

A hasty sling used in the tight sling position


I'm fairly adept with handguns (I'll never win any medals, but I'm okay with that...) but I'm (almost) totally new to rifles. I know what a sling is. It's that long strap you use to hang the rifle over your shoulder when you're not actually shooting at something.

Okay.

How can I find out the different ways to actually use the sling to my advantage? I find myself shooting patterns, not groups...
 
I have no formal marksmanship training, and have not shot much with open sighted rifles until about 5 years ago, but here's what I have found to work for me in my trial and error way of learning:

Consistant cheekweld- My cheek rests the same way on the rifle stock every time- I usually have my cheek or nose touching the same part of my thumb as a reference point.

Front sight, front sight, front sight, squeezing trigger, front sight
That pyramid shaped front sight is hard to focus on, and becomes even worse if you start trying to focus back and forth from the rear sight and the target- keep the focus on the front sight.

follow through- try to keep your front sight on the target through the shot as if trying to guide thebullet to the target. The rifle will jump but it should still seem lined up after the recoil.

Call your shots- did the last shot feel right? do you remember what your sight picture looked like the moment it fired? Analyse each shot and determine what to do on the next shot to not make the same mistake. After awhile you will be able to know when you jerk a shot and have a pretty good idea where it hit without even looking.

Practice, practice, practice. I know you didn't want to hear it, but use an iron sighted .22- more rounds down range in a meaningful fashion means you get to work on your sight picture and trigger control more- I find that I get the most out of shooting small objects such as pop cans on sand berms at ranges up to 100 yards- you get instant feedback as to where the shot hit.

Even with the mauser sights, it is possible to shoot these rifles very well if they are accurate to start with, I have no problems shooting 1 1/2" groups at 100 yards if the rifles are capable of it, a couple of older gentlemen that go to my club's range every day to shoot cast lead bullets, aren't satisfied if their open sighted rifles aren't shooting well under 1" at 100.


If I can do it, anyone can do it.

:D
 
Does there ever come a point where irons are no longer viable? I think I'm at that point or else I need a new script for my eyewear. It is about a 5yo pair. At 45yo (46 on the 12th of Feb.) I can bean a 100 meter target with a scope or small red dot but REALLY struggle with open sights.
 
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