Mystery Russian Rifle in Photo on the Front Page of August 20th Wall Street Journal

[JHansenAK47]

If you look at the POWs pants you will see they are Marpat. So they are almost certainly Georgian soldiers or possibly policeman. What I want to know is are the Georgians using Ak74s exclusively or have we sent them any rifles in any great numbers. IE AR15s or maybe even sent them AK74s from Bulgaria or somewhere. Seeing how they probably aren't buying Russian weapons.

 

[SDC]

Here are a few of the newer Russian firearms chambered for this round; the SP-5 and SP-6 were designed to be easily-silenced from the beginning, and the SP-6 has an AP core for additional AP ability:

VSS Vintorez


AS Val


9A-91


SR-3 Vikhr


VSK-94


OTs-11 Tiss


and the OTs-14 Groza, a modular rifle that can be put together with or without a telescopic sight, with or without a 30mm grenade launcher, or with or without a suppressor.

 

[dispatch55126]

The picture was taken by (AP?) after a russian raid a few days ago. They captured a few georgian regulars before retreating back to russian lines. This occurred after the cease-fire.

MOD-I'm not off topic, just clarifying where/when the photo was taken.

 

[max popenker]

or have we sent them any rifles in any great numbers

IIRC Russian forces captured more than few M4 carbines NIB at one warehouse; that's not counting few bigger things like about a hundred of tanks and other armored vehicles...

 

[Harley Quinn]

Has anyone considered the application of this in a civilian enviroment? Ninja time

Against a force that has a lot of flack jackets and other forms of protection it would be similar to shooting a 45 acp at them, not very effective. But against civilian groups it would be very effective. No noise, just move in and take over.

The range is limited to house to house as a general rule... 100/200 yds or so?
It would still be effective as long as heavy clothing is not worn...Injuries would be high.

Is this off topic?

 

[SDC]

Actually, Harley, this ties in very closely with a magazine that I'm translating right now ("Oruzhie" ("Weapons"), sort of a Russian version of "Guns and Ammo"); the magazine claims that these cartridges, and the firearms built for them, were designed from the outset to be both easily-suppressed, and to have a limited ricochet potential, because they were developed at a time when they were busy fighting in Chechnya. Also, the SP-6 round is supposed to be able to pierce Level IV body armour at ranges of up to 100 metres; at that range the SP-6 is suposed to be able to punch through 8mm of steel plate, but against UN-armoured targets, they're supposed to be able to be used at ranges of up to 400 metres, all while being essentially noiseless and flameless.

 

[Hoplophile]

The VSS is my absolute favorite weapon ever. I'd LOVE to have one and have researched ways to import one legally. However, the only way to do it is as a dealer sample. That, and I doubt the Spets are going to let us play with their toys. It's a shame, since the 9x39 round is a thing of beauty, and truth be told, the firearm isn't really all that dangerous. Why? Because 1) When I spend 5k+ on a gun, I'm unlikely to go and do something dumb with it, and 2) Any crime committed with 9x39 would be like walking into a police station and screaming "HAY, GUYS! LOOK AT ME, WHY DON'T YOU RUN A CHECK FOR OUTSTANDING WARRANTS ON ME? CHECK ME OUT, I'M JUST WHO YOU'RE LOOKING FOR", because there probably are a total of less than ten other SP-5/6 firearms in the country.

Not gonna happen. Ever. We can dream.

(also the war in Georgia is bad and war is bad, I feel for both sides)

 

[AJ Dual]

Okay, I'm not one to worry much about the "Face against the chamber" issues with most bullpup designs.

But when all that's between my cheek and the chamber is just your standard AK/AKM sheetmetal dustcover... PROBLEM!



Oh, and Hoplophile, unless it absolutely HAS to be 9mm, if you really just want to play with the concept of sub-sonic high sectional density rifle cartridges, the .300 whisper is right up your alley. I think the .300 whisper AR uppers might not be in production anymore, but I think they can still be had made to order, or there's stock left to be sold. Or a good AR smith can make you one, all that's needed is a .308 barrel, with the hybrid .223/5.56x45 chamber reamer for the .30 caliber bullet.

There's loading dies to be had, and the .223 brass and various .30 bullets are as common as can be.

Even if it's 100% custom AR upper work, with $200 NFA for a supressor, and the suppressor, and an AR lower if you don't already have one, the whole thing can be done cheaper than importing a VSS Vintorez eve assuming you were allowed to do so.

If it HAS to be 9mm, (.357 hunting projectiles for safari rifles?) somebody would probably be willing to make you the reamer and dies, and could use an AR-10 & bolt to use a .308/7.62NATO case-head as the starting point, and a 9mm barrel blank for the upper.

 

[Harley Quinn]

SDC,

I am sort of saying to myself, how can you have a round that is traveling at subsonic and large in diam. be able to pierce these items you are talking about. Slow, lack of gravity resistance, and claiming 400 meter shots

Taking a similar speed and weight item that I am familiar with and thinking it will pierce a car door with the window down and still do damage is hard to come to grips with...Most of the weapons that are moving faster and lighter seem to have the advantage...I can see it on soft skin but not something protected.
I am not sure mathematical equasion is going to substantiate the claims? Mass and all that going against the already know outcome? Subsonic is that, and therein lies its power of surprise, not to be able to penetrate steel not out of rifles anyway or hand guns?

9mm will penetrate well at higher rates of speed but then sonic is contained and the item is traveling at a higher speed it will still make noise, the lack of noise and fire at night, would be a snipers delight.

 

[AJ Dual]

You're thinking in terms of blunt or round nosed 9mm pistol bullets.

The VSS Vintorez shoots a very loooong and pointy Spitzer profile proprietary 9mm bullet with a steel or even AP core, and has a long boat-tail taper in the rear. It may be 9mm in diameter, but in terms of sectional density, it's operating on a totally different level...

 

[SDC]

Actually, in the other pictures I have of the Groza, it appears that the front of the receiver is milled, and that it's only rivetted to an AKM-style stamped rear. They probably did this not only to add strength for firing safety, but to make it less likely that the receiver would get deformed in the course of switching out the various trigger groups.

 

[SDC]

Ditto what AJ said; the SP-5 round has a mild steel core, but the SP-6 round has an AP steel core; because they're so much heavier (around 250 grains), it's almost like shooting an AP round out of a 45-70.

 

[AJ Dual]

Well in any AKM the front trunion that surrounds the chamber is milled, what I'd be more concerned about is catastrophic failure propelling the sheet-steel cover or piston bolt parts into my face.

Most of the other issue bullpup designs have a rather unitary polymer shell (AUG, TAVOR, FN2000) or at least a unitary reciever piece at your face, FAMAS, SA-80 etc.

AK-style dustcover is just a "sproing and a meaty thwack away"...

OTOH, if this design is in the 9x39, pressures etc. are probably radicaly different than 7.62 or 5.45 rifles...

Not saying the russkies are stupid or wrong, just that only an AKM cover against my face is a nervous-making thing for me.

And I'm a guy who likes bullpups.

 

[Geronimo45]

Say, Max - since this rifle is AP, I'm hoping it would be on-topic to ask why Russia has such a tendency to go with AP in everything? Even the .22-ish pocket pistol they have is AP.
Is there a major issue with Chechen folk and similar wearing body armor?

 

[Harley Quinn]

This url shows some of the rounds fired in various weapons, still not enough difference to accomplish what some are mentioning.

http://world.guns.ru/ammo/sp-e.htm#SP-5

My thoughts are, something is terribly wrong with the data.

 

[PercyShelley]

Not really.

People have performed those ridiculously long shots with .45/70, and that's a far less aerodynamic bullet going only about 50% faster.

The 9x39 bullet is going to start out subsonic, which means very modest amounts of drag. Whatever energy it's got it should retain quite nicely.

Now there is the issue of the trajectory, which is going to be curvier than Jean Shrimpton if she put on twenty pounds, and I'm still scratching my head over the claimed AP performance. Other than that though, it's nothing inexplicable.

You don't need a flat shooting round for medium ranges; it's just nice.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

The VSS is my absolute favorite weapon ever. I'd LOVE to have one and have researched ways to import one legally. However, the only way to do it is as a dealer sample. That, and I doubt the Spets are going to let us play with their toys.

Aside from the full-auto issues, would it be that hard to get a custom maker to cobble together a run of VSS's? Maybe wouldn't be cheap, but it's basically a somewhat funky AKM with an unusual caliber and an integral suppressor, right?

EDIT: okay, so receiver design differs somewhat from an AKM (striker fired, selector, etc), but I'd imagine building it on an AKM receiver would significantly reduce the price.

So maybe a $200 AKM kit, $100 receiver, with a $200-300 custom-chambered barrel, and $1000 of work on an integrated silencer, plus $200 NFA stamp?

 

[JHansenAK47]

Is there a major issue with Chechen folk and similar wearing body armor?

I think the armor piercing part is more for penetrating cover and foreign sales. Not to mention most NATO countries issue some form of body armor.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Talking about Rifles is what this forum is for. Speculating as to what is going on in pictures, talking about politics, etc. does not belong here.