Myth busting 22LR "No dud/Why dud" thread

[LiveLife]

I have done many "myth busting" threads in the Handloading & Reloading category of THR over the years and "real world/practical" threads currently supporting 10/22 and T/CR22 threads in the "Rifles" category to pursue more objective, factual verification of shooting/reloading notions with measurable and repeatable data as much as possible.

Many of us have experienced the dreaded failure to feed, failure to fire or failure to extract with some brands/lots of 22LR ammunition. But is particular brand/model likely the cause? In this thread, I want to discuss the causes of these failures whether they are due to:

1. Ammunition brand
2. Ammunition age
3. Ammunition storage
4. Firearm
5. Firearm wear
6. Firearm maintenance
7. Others - Lack of priming compound on rim (priming compound moving away from rim), User modifications, etc.

I have shot over 20,000 rounds of most commercially available 20+ boxed and bulk 22LR ammunition the past 3 years (starting with several used 10/22s, new Take Down) and noticed something that prompted me to start the 25/50 yard 10/22 and T/CR22 threads capturing 10 shot groups out of the box to monitor accuracy trend as triggers/barrels broke in and wear took place under "real world" conditions (hot barrel, minimal cleaning and rapid fire for groups).

And firing different brands/weights on the same target during same range trip allowed me to conduct more realistic comparison of group size regardless whether I was having a good or bad range day to better determine which ammunition produced consistently smaller groups. But comparative accuracy will be covered in the 10/22 and T/CR22 threads and I may do a myth busting thread on free-floated vs anchored barrel (to account for barrel harmonics/whip) regarding accuracy in a new thread.

 

[LiveLife]

1. Ammunition brand - Inconclusive

I grew up shooting a Ruger 10/22 standard model and like many other members, shot A LOT of rounds and basis of how reliable 22LR ammunition performed was formed around shooting 10/22. During the recent 20,000+ round testing, several well used 10/22s were shot along with new Take Down model.

What I noticed was some ammunition that wasn't reliable in the well used 10/22 were more reliable in the new Take Down model which prompted buying new 10/22 Collector #3 model and T/CR22.

And during the 3000 round testing of new 10/22, only misfire/duds I experienced came from Winchester M22. Even the infamous "Thunderduds" went bang, every round. This was a surprise as I have experienced misfires/duds with various bulk 22LR over the decades and others mirrored my experience. So did I get lucky during my testing of around 20 brands/weights or have we been blaming the misfires/duds to ammunition?

And I post "inconclusive" because my sampling of ammunition was limited to lot #s of brands purchased within a year of my testing.

 

[LiveLife]

2/3. Ammunition age/storage - Likely?

Since ammunition lot variations exist (Likely to actual powder and charges used, etc.), we'll simply factor that into our discussion that could "tolerance stack" on top of other factors to add to 22LR performance reliability.

As a reloader, I am aware of smokeless powder breakdown. So like many, I also held the notion that old 22LR ammunition will likely not be reliable or as reliable from chemical decomposition over time, especially if stored in high temperatures.

But we have members who have posted shooting decades old 22LR ammunition that performed like new or consistently went bang perhaps with reduced velocities. I personally shot 22LR ammunition that were 10, 15, 20+ years old and mostly fired reliably (I will discuss other "mechanical" factors for misfires in #5/#6). Could it be true that older ammunition add to the frequency of misfires? And that's why I post "likely?".

When we purchase ammunition, we do not know the actual transport/storage conditions that persisted, perhaps for years before our purchase. For this reason, I tried to purchase newest lots of ammunition for my 10/22 and T/CR22 testing. I have reserved CCI SV, Blazer and Aguila bought during the 2013 component shortage and stored indoors (around 60-85F) as reference comparison (BTW, they have so far all gone bang without misfires).

 

[LiveLife]

4. Firearm - Confirmed

Most new firearms go bang reliably, even with cheap bulk ammo. Some with tighter tolerances may require a break-in period or be selective in ammunition choice.

Unfortunately, we have members posting new firearms not reliably feeding/firing different ammunition that are reliable in other firearms. We could attribute this to these firearms needing cleaning/lubrication/break in but some still post they experience less than 100% reliability of feeding/firing/extraction of a new firearm even after sufficient break-in period.

If a firearm is suffering manufacturing/mechanical problems that require repairs, we can confirm reliability issue is not due to ammunition.

Challenge exists, especially for new firearm, until these issues are identified, owner may do some head scratching why the firearm is not reliable.

 

[LiveLife]

5. Firearm wear - Confirmed

I think this is something that many of us overlook.

After many thousands of rounds (Tens of thousands for some), various firearm parts simply wear and increase tolerance. For center-fire pistols, when firing pins/strikers and springs wear creating shallower primer cup indent, we replace parts to restore reliability of primer ignition. Same is true for rimfire.

What I found during the 20,000+ round testing, ammunition that were unreliable in well used 10/22 were more reliable or became reliable in new 10/22 Take Down. These same brand ammunition were 100% reliable during 3000 round 10/22 testing even when reference tested using the same 2013-era ammunition.

 

[LiveLife]

6. Firearm maintenance - Confirmed

After 600 round count testing of T/CR22 with 100% reliability, following range trip produced feeding issues. After trying different ammunition, I decided to disassemble the magazine for cleaning and found intrusion of fine grain sand. When the magazine was cleaned of sand granules and reassembled, no more feeding issues.

By 3000 round count of 10/22 testing, I was impressed by the reliability of ammunition feeding (I have yet to disassemble the magazine for cleaning) and primer ignition (I am looking for a different lot of Winchester M22 to give it another shot).

Usually, my firearm testing involves pushing to the point of failure. With CMMG 22LR conversion bolt for ARs, several thousand rounds of copper plated ammunition coated the conversion bolt with black fouling that prevented bolt going into full battery and required cleaning with Hoppes #9 solvent. Same with GSG 1911 22LR and after cleaning/lubing, reliability returned.

So if a firearm has not been cleaned/lubricated recently, full disassembly for cleaning and oiling may address reliability issues.

 

[Swampman]

I fully believe that many reliability problems can be attributed to poor weapon cleaning and maintenance, but nothing can overcome a total lack of priming compound where the firing pin strikes the case rim.

There's a reason they're called "Thunderduds"...

 

[LiveLife]

... nothing can overcome a total lack of priming compound where the firing pin strikes the case rim.

That would definitely be 7. Others - Lack of priming compound at rim - Confirmed

There's a reason they're called "Thunderduds"...

Same as my experience from past decades ... And I essentially wrote off "Thunderduds" before the 20,000 round test.

But in recent years, many members reported good reliability and accuracy so I decided to include for my 3000 round 10/22 test in 2019 and guess what? Zero issues, none, nada with about half the groups producing very respectable core group size.

I have enough on hand remaining so I will continue the testing to see if reliability continues with aging of powder/priming compound.

 

[12Bravo20]

We all know that bulk 22lr ammo is not always the most consistent when it comes to quality and the proper amount of primer compound that is evenly distributed. Most of the time, the bulk ammo doesn't pass the QA inspections for premium ammo but is not bad enough to reject all together and is packaged/sold in bulk for a lower price. Yes some brands are better than others.

Another thing that effects reliability in feeding is the shape of the bullet. Not all 22lr bullets are created equally. I have premium ammo that will not feed reliably in any of my 22lr AR's or in my Kel-Tec CP33 but feed just fine in my Ruger MkII and Marlin 60/70 rifles. My AR's and CP33 prefer fatter bullets.

Using copper coated ammo versus plain lead is not so much a QA/QC issue but it does make a difference. Some 22lr firearms just do better with copper coated bullets.

I haven't used any Remington or Winchester bulk ammo in a long time. I had too many issues with both. That stuff would cause issues even in my Marlins and Ruger MkII

 

[sparkyv]

Thanks for another good post, LiveLife. I have pretty much stopped acquiring loose-packed bulk 22LR because I've experienced many more DUDs vs. boxed. The really cheap WIN 555 / Western is the worst offender in my firearms...see what's in the pan below which explains why.

REM Golden Bullets are surprisingly good performers for me, both in reliability and plinking accuracy.

We all know that bulk 22lr ammo is not always the most consistent when it comes to quality and the proper amount of primer compound that is evenly distributed. Most of the time, the bulk ammo doesn't pass the QA infections for premium ammo but is not bad enough tp reject all together and is packaged/sold in bulk for a lower price. Yes some brands are better than others.

I haven't used any Remington or Winchester bulk ammo in a long time. I had too many issues with both. That stuff would cause issues even in my Marlins and Ruger MkII

we do not know the actual transport/storage conditions that persisted,

 

[murf]

I decided to disassemble the magazine for cleaning and found intrusion of fine grain sand. When the magazine was cleaned of sand granules and reassembled, no more feeding issues.

this would fix a lot of issues for folks, handguns as well as rifles. are you going to test the bx25 and after-market magazines? maybe run a test swapping magazines between rifles? great stuff here.

murf

 

[12Bravo20]

Another thing I have found that helps with feeding issues, especially with higher capacity mags, is to load them to full capacity and let them sit a couple of days, then I'll unload them and reload them, I do this 2-3 times with all new magazines.It has definitely made a difference with my Kel-Tec CP33, PMR/CMR30 and my ProMag 18 round G44 magazines.

ANd I agree, you do want to clean them and use a dry lubricant on the insides.

 

[Riomouse911]

I’ve always wondered why all rimfire firing pins weren’t either split-tip, to strike two areas on the rim, or wider, to strike a larger area of the rim. Especially with a solid strike that doesn’t fire on the first attempt, then a restrike elsewhere on the rim fires perfectly.

This past Friday I put a few hundred of each load through the S&W Model 18 4”and Dan Wesson 6” .22 LR’s using Armscor 36 gr hp, Blazer 40 gr lead, Aguila subsonic 40 gr lead and Norma Tac-22 40 gr lead.

I had one FTF with the Armscor rounds in the Model 18. The case had a good indentation where the pin hit it so I’ll assume it was incomplete priming around the rim, as that round fired when I rotated the cartridge 45 degrees in the chamber and restruck it.

The .22 magnum Model 48 4” also came out and I fired fifty each of the Armscor 40 gr JHP, the Win 40 gr JHP and Win Dynapoint 45 gr plated bullet rounds. A smaller sample, but all cartridges fired on the first pull.



This gun packs a loud report and a visible fireball with almost zero recoil. Once I get the sights dialed in it’ll make a dandy UTV gun for the trails.

Stay safe.

 

[LiveLife]

I’ve always wondered why all rimfire firing pins weren’t either split-tip, to strike two areas on the rim, or wider, to strike a larger area of the rim. Especially with a solid strike that doesn’t fire on the first attempt, then a restrike elsewhere on the rim fires perfectly.

So we could have discussions like this thread?

Seriously, I think that's a good idea but I believe when gun manufacturers design their hammer fired guns, use of two firing pins/strikers is likely not considered as they would expect ammunition manufacturers to properly prime rounds.

 

[LiveLife]

I had one FTF with the Armscor rounds in the Model 18. The case had a good indentation where the pin hit it so I’ll assume it was incomplete priming around the rim, as that round fired when I rotated the cartridge 45 degrees in the chamber and restruck it.

And that's one of many myths I want to confirm or bust with this thread.

As Swampman posted with pictures of Remington Thunderbolts showing lack of priming compound around the rim, we can confirm the myth of "Thunderduds" and the cause. However, not sure how old that lot was as my testing conducted since 2019 using new 10/22 and T/CR22 demonstrated consistent priming compound ignition (100%) with several boxes so far.

So if you experience another failure to fire, could you pull the bullet off and take a picture of priming compound after pouring out the powder charge? If there is indeed missing priming compound, we can confirm the cause of misfire. But if there is full ring of priming compound, it could be firearm/firing pin/spring/fouling build up that could be the cause.

 

[Swampman]

That would definitely be 7. Others - Lack of priming compound at rim - Confirmed


Same as my experience from past decades ... And I essentially wrote off "Thunderduds" before the 20,000 round test.

But in recent years, many members reported good reliability and accuracy so I decided to include for my 3000 round 10/22 test in 2019 and guess what? Zero issues, none, nada with about half the groups producing very respectable core group size.

I have enough on hand remaining so I will continue the testing to see if reliability continues with aging of powder/priming compound.

To the best of my recollection, the Remington Thunderbolts pictured in my previous post were purchased in 2007-2008 and "fired" in 2012.

They were stored in original packaging inside sealed .50 cal cans (with desiccant packs) that were kept in a climate controlled environment until unpacked to be shot.

I’ve always wondered why all rimfire firing pins weren’t either split-tip, to strike two areas on the rim, or wider, to strike a larger area of the rim...

If you increased the area struck by the firing pin it would probably decrease overall reliability unless you also had a commensurate increase in the energy of the firing pin.

The heavier springs required would make it more difficult to achieve a light, smooth trigger pull.

I think a more reasonable solution is for ammunition manufacturers to put the priming compound where it's supposed to be.

 

[Riomouse911]

And that's one of many myths I want to confirm or bust with this thread.

As Swampman posted with pictures of Remington Thunderbolts showing lack of priming compound around the rim, we can confirm the myth of "Thunderduds" and the cause. However, not sure how old that lot was as my testing conducted since 2019 using new 10/22 and T/CR22 demonstrated consistent priming compound ignition (100%) with several boxes so far.

So if you experience another failure to fire, could you pull the bullet off and take a picture of priming compound after pouring out the powder charge? If there is indeed missing priming compound, we can confirm the cause of misfire. But if there is full ring of priming compound, it could be firearm/firing pin/spring/fouling build up that could be the cause.

Will do.

Stay safe.

 

[Riomouse911]

To the best of my recollection, the Remington Thunderbolts pictured in my previous post were purchased in 2007-2008 and "fired" in 2012.

They were stored in original packaging inside sealed .50 cal cans (with desiccant packs) that were kept in a climate controlled environment until unpacked to be shot.

If you increased the area struck by the firing pin it would probably decrease overall reliability unless you also had a commensurate increase in the energy of the firing pin.

The heavier springs required would make it more difficult to achieve a light, smooth trigger pull.

I think a more reasonable solution is for ammunition manufacturers to put the priming compound where it's supposed to be.

Could be the reason. I’d still like to see pins a little bit wider to better the odds of hitting priming compound if it’s thin, but I don’t think they’ll redesign stuff so it’ll stay as is I guess.

As for the manufacturer placing priming compound… in a perfect world I guess we would
expect that. Until then, I think we’ll still get duds with the non-match-grade stuff once in a while.

Stay safe.

 

[Swampman]

...if you experience another failure to fire, could you pull the bullet off and take a picture of priming compound after pouring out the powder charge?

I'm sure that most readers are already aware of this, but NEVER USE A KINETIC BULLET PULLER ON RIMFIRE AMMUNITION!

The best (easiest/cheapest/safest) method I've found is to use a .22 collet type puller. Since I don't have a shellholder designed for .22 rimfire, I use a Lee shellholder made for large primer cases (the Lee hole is larger than those in my RCBS shellholders) and stick the whole cartridge through the priming hole. The bullet and case will go through, but the rim is too large and will hold the case in place while the bullet is pulled.

I then hold the round in place against gravity with a popsicle stick while I raise the ram and tighten the collet. Gently lowering the ram pulls the bullet easily with very little force required.

If you don't have a .22 collet puller, you can just grab the bullet with pliers and lower the ram, but be careful not to bugger the threads on your press.

As always, YMMV. Use appropriate PPE and be careful. I am not responsible if anyone puts their eye out (Popsicle sticks can be dangerous ).

 

[Ignition Override]

Both my Ruger Mark IV and M&P (standard length) .22 handguns were bought brand-new, at Guns And Ammo in Memphis, about three years ago.

They weren't totally reliable with anything (Fail To Extract), but both functioned better with Rem. Golden Bullet than with the bulk 'blue box', or the Automatch by Federal. Cleaned & lubed with Ballistol after every 150-250 rds. or so.

Even CCI Minimags were maybe 96-98 %. My grip wasn't relaxed, and was similar to what makes my 9mm handguns very reliable.

After both .22 handguns had either >> 1/3" or about 1/2" << removed from the recoil springs, both immediately became 99% -100% with anything I used (wow). Finally, they were really fun to shoot.

Only exception, after creating shorter recoil springs was having freq. bad primers in a fair bit of Winchester " 333 " ammo. The ammo boxes looked good, but no idea how old they are, being bought from an older gent at the club.

 

[LiveLife]

Ruger Mark IV and M&P (standard length) .22 handguns were bought brand-new ... after both .22 handguns had either 1/3" or about 1/2" removed from the recoil springs, both immediately became 99% -100% with anything I used (wow).

4. Firearm - Confirmed

 

[LiveLife]

the Remington Thunderbolts ... were purchased in 2007-2008 and "fired" in 2012.

They were stored in original packaging inside sealed .50 cal cans (with desiccant packs) that were kept in a climate controlled environment until unpacked to be shot.

Oh, I am more than convinced that lack of priming compound at rim was the cause of duds at the time of firing.

Now, the next question would be was there sufficient priming compound when the boxes left the Remington plant and did the priming compound somehow move away from the rim?

I would not consider 5 year old ammunition stored in "room temperature" conditions old or improper storage. And the next questions would be how the ammunition was transported, stored and for how long after boxes of Thunderbolts left the plant before they were purchased (And these would be unknown variables).

Still, having shot various 22LR after 10, 15, 20+ years of storage inside the house at 60-85F, I am suspecting instability of priming compound enough to leave the rim on the manufacturer.

So, 7. Others - Lack of priming compound at rim - Confirmed (For 2007-2008 Thunderbolts 500 bulk pack)

I have pretty much stopped acquiring loose-packed bulk 22LR because I've experienced many more DUDs vs. boxed. The really cheap WIN 555 / Western is the worst offender in my firearms...see what's in the pan below which explains why.

Looks like priming compound moved away from the rim and mixed with powder charge. (For Winchester 555 bulk pack)

 

[Carl N. Brown]

I believe the original 1860s Henry rifle had a double pointed firing pin that struck opposite sides of the cartridge rim.

Added: of course, striking opposite sides simultaneously doesn't help if the priming compound is nowhere in the rim where it should be.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

The gun club has a basket for dud rounds.
Ever once in awhile I'll bag up a few once-struck .22 cartridges & take them home, clean & inspect them, later during a really boring range day, try some of them out in one or two of my .22 guns.

The top six fired in my Heritage Rough Rider revolver, struck more or less opposite the light strike below from a gun unknown.
The others fired in my M6 Scout (on which years ago I modified the rimfire firing pin from round end to flat because the round end was too long and was denting the rim of the .22 barrel firing chamber).
I still encountered a few once struck rounds that would not fire with 4 strikes at North East South West on the rim.
The firing pin strikes from my guns were more substantial, but it is possible that the cartridges would have fired with a light second strike.
Still, final cleaning of all my .22s for winter storage includes assuring that the firing pin channel is not crudded up and the firing pin moves freely.

 

[FROGO207]

I also had some bulk pack Remington Thunderbolts from the early 2000's that had about a 20% dud range. Finally took them apart, melted the lead. Put the brass in my lead pot with a cover and heated them till they stopped popping and turned in for scrap brass. Found many that had zero primer compound within. There was a story that Remington had rebuilt/replaced their priming machinery for their rimfire ammo about the time of the second Obama term. This may be why they are better now.
Also when my SS Ruger MK II hit about 85K rounds they had problems. I found that the back of the firing pin had been peened wide enough that it would jamb in the channel and no longer go foward enough to strike the rim well enough. New firing pin solved the problem in both of them.