NAA progress on .32 H&R mag mini

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Bob79

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Sandy Chisholm of NAA has posted an update on the development of a NAA mini in 32 H&R mag on their website!

If you don't know its...http://www.naaminis.com

And on the home page you go all the way to the bottom and click on "Sandy's Soapbox".

Looks like its going to be awesome!
 
That's sounds neat! I hope it isn't too expensive. It sounds like a great smaller bug and just a neat gun. I bought one of the 22Short Minis just cause it was neat!
 
When it is available, I have no doubts that I will get one. Interestingly, Sandy's Soapbox describes it as a "break-open". I can't wait to see one.
 
A modern breaktop! Don't we have a certain number of people on this forum who swore that they would buy a modern breaktop if one came out?

Do we have any THR policy about holding members to their "if they build XYZ, I'd buy one!" comimtments?

All that aside, I am extremely curious to see this new piece, but it would take some severe coolness/handiness to replace my P32. "Give me convenience or give me death!"

-MV (frantically searching the archives to figure out what I swore I'd buy)
 
I'm thinking along the same lines Matt. I have a P-32 which I carry as my pocket gun, and although it has only one FTF in about 300 rounds (and it was in the first 125) I still dont' trust it 100%. I guess I just prefer a revolver for reliability. Also to further complicate things, if you compare the dimensions for the NAA with that of a P-32, the overall dimensions are very similar. Obviously the NAA will be wider because of the cylinder, and I imagine it may be just a little heavier. But you have revovler reliability, with a centerfire round (vs. their current minis), and 5 shots of a round that is ballistically much better than the 32ACP.

So I don't know, 8 rounds of 32ACP with FMJ hot ammo (73 gr) running at about 900FPS for about 130 on the energy side OR 5 rounds of 32 HR magnum ammo (85gr) going about 975+FPS for about 180 on the energy side with probable expansion from the JHP round? I'm 99% sure I'll buy one as long as they are not too heavy, and I guess I won't know till I compare. But its definately an option.
 
According to my calculations, 85 gr H&R magnum ammo that goes 1100 fps out of a 4.5" barrel (Federal's factory load) will be more like 800-820 fps out of a 1 5/8" barrel. I can't find any (safe) handloading data that's any more powerful. Still not too bad. I'd probably want to use full wadcutters though, since JHPs at such a low velocity would probably either not expand at all, or overexpand and underpenetrate.
 
@Bob79

Glad to see I'm not alone in the NAArevo vs. P32 conundrum. Ah well, it's all academic until Summer 2006 (_if_ they release on schedule).

Cartridge power aside, I see it as mainly an issue of revolver reliability vs. auto speed. That said, it doesn't matter a whit how fast the follow-up shot for an auto is when it jams before the follow-up shot. I'd hate to be stuck holding a single-shot P32, but trying to thumb-cock a SA mini-revo in a do-or-die situation is also not ideal.

My P32 has been great with one massive exception: around round 200 or so, an empty shell casing got so badly stuck that I had to send it back to the factory to be removed. I mean _really_ stuck; neither I nor anyone else could get it loose despite vise, pliers, rubber-mallet, etc. In fairness, I had just gotten it hard-chromed by KT, and it's probably no coincidence that it seized up on the second mag fired after the chroming. I'm still kicking myself wondering if this could have been prevented by carefully examining it for any flaws in the hardchroming process. Just to be safe, I threw out the rest of the box of Brazilian (Magtech?) .32ACP ammo.

Long story short, I'll wait for the new NAA and then decide. I'm also considering sucking up the cost and just buying a Rohrbaugh after I sell some items to free up cash. Pricey, but pocket-sized and 9mm. Decisions, decisions. -MV
 
I have already stated (in another forum)...

that Sandy's new revolver will be the "sweetheart" of every Undercover Narcotics Agent on the face of this great nation! :)

Scott
 
Ryan-How did you figure that it would only be 800 or so?

Usually bullet speed falls off about 40-50FPS per inch of barrel shorter. So going from a 4.5" barrel to a 1.5" would be 3 inches less or about 150FPS slower. This leaves a speed of about 950 FPS roughly, and one person has posted here he clocked a GA 32 H&R round out of his 1 7/8 barrel S&W at over 1,000.

I just think that 800-820 FPS is a big under-estimation, but NAA is really good about putting up performance numbers on their site, and I'm sure they'll do the same for the 32 H&R after its released.
 
The X fps per inch of barrel length only works for high-powered centerfire rifles, and only at barrel lengths of about 14" to 28" (or it may be more like 20" to 28"). Bullets accelerate to a good percentage of their final velocity in the first few inches, depending on the powder speed. In other words, if you did a chart of velocities of bullets at different barrel lengths, it will only be roughly linear after most of the acceleration is done.

For instance, according to NAA, Federal Gold Medal Target through a 1 1/8" mini goes at 727 fps. According to Federal, the same ammo goes at 1080 fps through a 24" barrel. Okay, so subtracting 50 fps per barrel length inch... the bullet will hit you at 64 fps, because it'll be going backwards through such a short barrel! Doesn't work, does it?

Similarly, trying to add fps when adding barrel length doesn't work either. According to some guy's actual chrono data, .40 S&W 180 gr FMJ out of a G22 goes at about 965 fps, while a 16" carbine manages about 1120 fps. "Rule of thumb" calculations give 1540 fps instead. Not very close at all.

Also, you'll notice that ammo companies never bother to give barrel lengths for their shotgun ammo velocities. That's because, like most pistols, shotgun ammo reaches about 90% of the highest velocity it could possibly ever achieve in about 10" of barrel length, and probably about 75% of max velocity in 5-6" or less. So the difference in velocity between an 18" shotgun and a 28" shotgun could probably be counted on fingers and toes.

Naturally, those examples are exaggerated compared to a 2 7/8" difference. But they do show how the majority of the bullet's acceleration is done in the first couple inches. So changes in barrel length at that crucial area where the bullet is picking up the most speed have bigger differences than you'd think.

I used a calculator that's actually meant for calculating the muzzle velocity of pneumatic potato guns, but it does a good job of guestimating firearms as well, as long as you know the chamber pressure.
 
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Ryan - that is an excellent point to make - and clears up quite a lot of misapprehensions folks must have.

I guess for me easiest is to think of the acceleration as being exponential for most part - such that steepest and shortest section of the curve is right at beginning, which as you say is the perhaps 2" or so. After probably quite a short distance friction and greater volume for gases will see the decay and shallower slope, tapering off and acceleration rate decreasing.

Not sure if I recall my calculus too well but this seems to remind me of a dv/dt analysis. Plus Mu of course if we take friction on board.
 
I would love one. I love revolvers and a .32mag in the same size range as the NAA mini-revolvers would be incredible. Only problem is that, like the .22lr and .22mag mini-revolvers, it probably won't make the MD State Police roster of approved handguns (it is too concealable).
 
Great Thread with a LOT of great information!!

I do not recall the model number, but the S&W J frame 32 was a popular snubbie handgun for many I was around , worked with.

Ladies were more comfortable with this size::weight:: to recoil. The other features included concealable and its use in a busniness setting , close quarters and even if one had to use in their vehicle.

Darn things are accurate! Many used this 32 in med frame revolvers from woods guns or small game. Them little J's took their share as well around the property and such.

Looking forward to how NAA progresses with this project , looking forward to seeing it available.

I really hope there is no Gun locks or other similar features. The NAA minis are well built with good metallurgy - this needs to be retained and sure it will be.

Steve
 
I hope they supply it with those rubber grips from Hogue right away. I replaced the wood ones on my 22 Mag with the slip on grips and they are really nice. They feel very secure in my hand.

Make it now - I want it now. Oops!
 
With weaker rounds, like .25 ACP, .32 ACP, .380 ACP, .32 H&R through a snubby, etc., any expansion is overexpansion, in terms of penetration depth.
 
Ryan-I don't get what you're saying. Any expansion is over expansion? So, if the .32 HR goes in to 10-12 inches and expands thats over expansion?

And I don't agree with your figuring of velocity lost in relation to barrel length either. I read an article about a year back where a guy wanted to test .38+P ammo out of a S&W 1 7/8" snub to see what it actually produced as far as FPS. He tested out over half a dozen ammo brands and then posted the chrono numbers for actual FPS. And when you compare the actual numbers with what the manufacturer advertised, the 50FPS loss per inch of barrel was very close.

I spoke with a tech from GA about the 32 HR ammo when they were switching to 85gr instead of the 100gr a couple of weeks ago. I suggested he post the actual chrono numbers they were getting out of his friend's S&W 332, and he said that was a good idea. Hopefully they will post it sometime in the near future. And I tell you what, if it only hits 800 FPS I'll send you a check for $20 bucks. I just can't see the FPS tailing off that much. But we'll see when they post it on their site, if not guess we'll have to wait until NAA does it, because they're real good about putting up those figures.
 
10-12" definitely indicates overexpansion or fragmentation. The optimal penetration range against humans of average size is 12" or greater, with an average of 13" or more being ideal. The optimum is somewhere around 13-14". An 85 gr bullet at 800 fps can only expand to a hair under .39" and still penetrate 13". That's only 1.25X expansion. Very, very few bullets will actually expand a small enough amount, reliably, to get decent penetration. The Hornady 90 gr .380 XTP comes close, with consistent 1.3x expansion, but that still limits penetration to about 11".

My calculations were based on Federal ammo, which hits 1100 fps through a 4.5" vented barrel. Assuming a chamber pressure of 14,000 PSI to 17,000 PSI (instead of just 14,000, like I asumed before), the range spreads out to 800-880 or so. Let's see, Georgia arms says 100 grains at 1,100 fps, no barrel length given. If it's 4.5" again, I get 800 to 860 fps, actually. A little slower.

Well, let's see what .38 SPL does through this calculator. 16,500 PSI, 158 gr, 755 fps, 4" vented barrel...
4" - 755
3" - 716
2.5" - 690
2" - 659
1 7/8" - 649

100 fps slower, so that's close to the "rule of thumb."

For .38 +P... 18,000 PSI, 158 gr, 890 fps, 4" vented barrel...
4" - 890
3" - 835
2.5" - 799
2" - 756
1 7/8" - 744

Though most manufacturers don't push the upper limits of the .38's pressure like that (both PSI figures are 500 PSI below the SAAMI maximum). Some .38 +P handloads top out at 17,000 PSI. For safety, I guess. That's also assuming that the vents don't shorten the effective barrel length to 3.5" or 3.25". Why do manufacturers always test .38s through vented barrels? Anyway, I'll run some more numbers with actual PSI figures from a reloading manual later.

Edit: Oh, wait, crap. I totally forgot that SAAMI chamber pressure standards (and reported pressures in load books) are the average pressure. This crazy calculator uses the peak pressure for its input. I'll need to totally recalculate all those velocity figures. They'll probably be much higher.
 
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Okay, figured out a better way of using this calculator, by making the gas volume equal to case volume minus the space the bullet occupies, and fiddling with the pressure instead.

.38 +P 158 gr LSWCHP
peak pressure, 40,580 PSI; average pressure, ~17,000 PSI
4" - 890
3" - 860
2.5" - 840
2" - 815
1.875" - 808

.38 +P 125 gr SJHP
peak pressure, 30,970 PSI; average pressure, ~17,000 PSI
4" - 945
3" - 909
2.5" - 886
2" - 857
1.875" - 848

.38 +P 110 gr SJHP
peak pressure, 29,300 PSI; average pressure, ~17,500 PSI
4" - 995
3" - 957
2.5" - 932
2" - 901
1.875" - 891

So updated .32 H&R magnum should be...
.32 H&R 85 gr JHP
peak pressure, 38,640 PSI; average pressure, ~19,000 PSI (finally found a load book that lists pressure in PSI instead of CUP)
4.5" - 1100
4" - 1085
3.5" - 1067
2.5" - 1019
1.625" - 956

.32 H&R 100 gr JHP
peak pressure, 50,840 PSI (yikes!); average pressure, ~21,000 CUP
10" - 1169 (close to Accurate reloading data)
4.5" - 1100
4" - 1086
3.5" - 1069
2.5" - 1025
1.625" - 965

Hm. Looks like 50 per inch isn't quite that far off. Except for the 100 grain .32 load only gaining 69 fps in a 5.5" longer barrel.
 
RyanM, do your sources have peak pressures for some other loads, like 9x19 115gr or a 357 magnum 125gr? It could be possible that the .32 mag could be pushed even further than those loads purport, and I think a snubby pushing 100gr at 1100fps would be something to contend with :)
 
The peak pressures I only listed for my own reference, so I could put the numbers back in, if someone wanted data for a different barrel length. I had to calculate them with trial and error, pretty much. My best estimate is that peak pressure is generally anywhere from 1.5 to 2 times as high as the average pressure. For the same performance, peak pressure with a fast powder will be higher than a slower powder, and it's really impossible to model that difference with this calculator. If only the good programs didn't cost money...
 
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