Nagant for SD?

[Piedmont Plinker]

Forget firing the Nagant double-action, although it would be a last-ditch resort. But many will agree that a single action revolver would work for SD/ HD. So say someone is living in an apartment while in college. They want a personal defense gun that they could aslo keep in their car and that they can hide, but they don't want to shell out that much cash. So, if this was your scenario, would you buy a Nagant for, say, $100?
I'm fairly sure that Nagants can take .32 Mag, which wouldn't be a snotty performer out of a 4.5'' tube with no cylinder gap.
PS, how are these guns as plinking/small game/farm guns? You know, the kind you shoot cans and kill snakes and possums with? Are they accurate?

 

[bill larry]

CZ...

I keep my Nagant loaded with .32 Longs, and I keep it in my truck on a daily basis.

I think it makes an okay weapon, being that having a gun is better than not having one, ya dig?

Practice, practice , practice dry firing it double action until it feels good...I did this...the trigger really isnt that bad once you get your finger stronger. plus it makes all your other guns feel like they were custom tuned.

There's an example of double action only shooting with my Nagant at 15 yards along with pics in another thread here on THR. Search for Nagant.

Oh, and I think its adequate for SD, 7 rounds of .32 will make a BG very sick, if not toes up.

 

[C-grunt]

Worked well enough on the Nazis.

 

[Ron James]

This MHO only, it would be better than throwing rocks. You could probably do worse but I'm not sure how.

 

[RandomMan]

.32 H&R Mag is nothing to sneeze at coming from a much smaller gun (think 2" J-Frame). Coming from the 4.5" barrel of a Nagant it's considerably more potent. Recoil management makes quick shooting as easy as can be. Double action shooting with a Nagant is actually easier than it appears to be with practice and some dry firing. Enough dry firing and Nagants smooth up nicely and you get used to the long pull in a hurry. Finally, you get 7 shots, instead of the normal 6.

A Nagant loaded with Federal 95-grain Lead SWCs serves as home protection now and again. It's quite capable of hitting the "saucer of doom" area within a man sized target (for those who aren't aware, we're talking about the coffee saucer sized area that encompasses the heart and major arteries, for quickest incapacitation). I wouldn't feel undergunned at all, although I still prefer a .38 Special.

-Rob

 

[Dave Markowitz]

Nagants are neat from an historical perspective, but I'd take one of my Remington 1858 cap and ball revolvers or my Ruger Old Army if I had to defend myself. The .44s are quite a bit more powerful and with modern caps and powder are very reliable. They are also a lot more shootable than the Nagant, and it's not like you're going to be speed reloading any of these guns, including the Nagant.

Most people shot with a Nagant probably received a bullet in the back of the head from the NKVD.

 

[tinygnat219]

The Nagant as a self-defense handgun?

This is about the worst choice one can make with the exception of going with Cap and Ball. :banghead:

I have 4 of these, and while two are Cowboy Action Guns, I would never use these for anything else, ever! The other two punch paper at the range when I can find good deals on ammo.

Let's look at it objectively:

1. The DA pull: The DA/SA versions are the most common and cheapest of the C&R handguns right now ranging from 79-120 bucks. One of mine was measured to have a 33 pound DA pull! None were fewer than 20. The SA pull is only a measely 13 pounds. So, most likely in pulling the trigger on one of these, you will miss the target because of the trigger pull.

2. Ammo: It shoots a 7.62X38R round that goes a screaming what, 800fps?
If you shoot .32 S&W Long out of it, that goes around 600 fps and is nowhere near what a defensive round should be in a handgun. .32 H&R Magnum can be fired, but all kinds of debris comes off the bullet when it hits the forcing cone. This debris can get in your eyes and throw off your shooting. Neither round is really a reliable self-defense round.

3. How are you going to conceal one of these? It's not exactly a small revolver, and no one makes holsters for these. I don't think running around with the rubberized canvas holster it came in is a good idea.

4. Reloading. This is slower than the Colt SAA of 1873, at least Sam Colt's engineers had the good sense to put a spring on the ejection rod.

4. The 1895 Nagant was obsolete by WWI, as there were better handguns out there, Webley, Rast, Enfield, Colt 1911, Luger 1908, 1896 Mauser, etc. This handgun was officially replaced in 1930 by the TT30 Tokarev, which was then replaced by the Makarov after WWII. The main reason it was still in use in WWII is the Russians needed everything they had to throw against the Germans, although it's more likely the Nagants were used to execute deserters than shoot Germans.

I understand that folks are looking for a bargain self-defense gun and oftentimes C&R handguns are thought to really be sufficient for this purpose. Even in the C&R category, the CZ-52 and Makarov are better choices.

If one is looking for an inexpensive Truck Gun or Self-Defense gun for 150-200 bucks, I suggest a High-Point in 9MM, .380; a CZ-52 for 129 bucks, or a Bulgarian Makarov for 150 bucks. Using the Nagant is a poor choice IMHO.

 

[Cosmoline]

It's far from ideal, but I've used one in a pinch several times. However, I don't load the original cylinder with .32 H&R. As noted, the debris are substantial and at the very least distracting. Recoil is sharp as is the noise. I have a .32 ACP conversion cylinder and after fine tuning it with some hand fitting I'm confident in it for self defense. Yes, it's only .32 ACP but OTOH the bullet picks up some speed from the 4" barrel, there's no recoil to speak of and you can fire all seven VERY quickly. The trigger pull isn't for everyone, as well. I have no problem with it, but I have short stubby finger potato digging hands. With that thin round stock I can get a ton of leverage on the trigger and it moves as fast as I need it to. A person with longer fingers and less powerful wrists is going to have trouble.

My ideal SD load for it would be the original "pig" loading for the 7.62 Nagant. It was this flat nosed round that gave the Nagant a good battlefield reputaion on the eastern front. I'm hopeful the forthcoming Wolf Gold release will be a copy of this loading. But as things stand, neither the Fiocchi nor the yellow box are good for personal defense. They're about half power, but since they're all we've had stateside for ages people test the Nagant using these target loads and assume it's weak as water. The ball loads for it are considerably more potent. Not quite up to Tok levels, but over 1,000 fps.

3. How are you going to conceal one of these? It's not exactly a small revolver, and no one makes holsters for these. I don't think running around with the rubberized canvas holster it came in is a good idea

I've used large jacket pockets or just attached the holster to a sling and rigged it as a shoulder holster. It rides quite nice. Most people who see the holster don't even recognize it as a firearm container. Heck, most people don't even recognize the Ivan as a firearm ;-)

 

[BADUNAME13]

Beat up S&W, Rossi, Taurus, revolvers

CZ52...

Heck, even a BP revolver! (I think)

NOT a Nagant!

 

[bill larry]

So, most likely in pulling the trigger on one of these, you will miss the target because of the trigger pull.

Not if you have any skill with the tool ...I do. I can shoot two inch DAO groups at 15 yards rapid fire with mine, because I practice (lots) with it and WANT to.

This is a better-than-nothing gun, but, I'm sure you could stop/kill the BG with it. Are their much better choices? YES! Are they as cool as the Nagant? I guess that depends on what floats your boat. It never fails to amaze me in reading the Armed Citizen column how many BG's have met their maker by getting holed by wimpy rounds, like the .22 or .25. The .32 long does at least as well as those.

Using the Nagant is a poor choice IMHO.

Again, not a first choice, but if you become proficient with your tools, it will do. Would anyone like to get shot with between one and seven wimpy rounds of .32 Long? Not me, friend.

 

[Jim March]

I prefer to Nag uncle...

 

[tinygnat219]

Bill Larry, Cosmoline

Seriously,
Why is the Nagant even being considered as a Self-Defense weapon :banghead: ? It's probably the worst choice one can make for a Self Defense gun being only slightly better than Cap and Ball. The handgun is a compromise defense tool in the first place, so why compromise yourself even further by choosing an antiquated design firing an incorrect caliber for the weapon and then have the incorrect caliber chosen is about as low on the totem pole in terms of stopping power as one can get (.32 S&W Long delivers a little less than 90 lbs on impact)?

It sounds like each you are selecting your Self-Defense handgun on the criteria of "coolness" / being inexpensive. Please correct me if I am wrong, but your posts seem to not be taking the choice of a Self-Defense Handgun seriously. At least that's the idea I get when reading your posts.

I get the same Armed Citizens that you do, and what they fail to tell you is that it takes some time for a wound from a .22, .25, or a .32 to make a bad guy drop as the bullets from these wounds, unless very finely placed, tend to make a bad guy bleed out and it's very possible that the bad guy will continue pounding on you or do something threatening until he drops. Read Massad Ayoob's "In the Gravest Extreme" for some good tips on Self-Defense.

So, to re-emphasize my earlier post, please choose SOMETHING better as your Self-Defense / Truck gun, you won't regret it. You won't even be spending much more money.

 

[Cosmoline]

I get the same Armed Citizens that you do, and what they fail to tell you is that it takes some time for a wound from a .22, .25, or a .32 to make a bad guy drop as the bullets from these wounds, unless very finely placed, tend to make a bad guy bleed out and it's very possible that the bad guy will continue pounding on you or do something threatening until he drops.

I've been through that stage of thinking, but the fact is it generally takes some time for a wound from any short gun this side of a .454 Casull to "make a bad guy drop." Placement is the key with any sidearm. You are placing far too much reliance on the diameter of the bullet. My rule is to use the largest, most powerful weapon available for self defense. So by my rule, ANY CCW firearm is by definition a poor choice for self defense. I'd MUCH rather have a rifle. But when you conceal, you have to be prepared to trade off power and effectiveness for the ability to hide the piece.

All hype aside, most CCW handguns fall into the same range power-wise. Don't get too hung up on the relative ft. lbs. between them. The difference between 200 ft. lbs. and 400 isn't likely to make a beans worth of difference. Your only real hope with any CCW piece is to make a hole in something vital and hope the fellow drops from shock or a collapse of his CNS before he can get you. Does that mean I won't take a .357 over a Nagant? No. But I wouldn't rule the Nagant out in a pinch anymore than I'd rule out a .32 ACP mouse gun. It's a stable, reliable and quite accurate firearm. It's also killed a LOT of people.

 

[bill larry]

Cosmoline +1

Neither one of us are saying that we'd prefer the Nagant to ANYTHING else. However, in my own case let me explain...

I can hit what I aim at with that piece of russian junk . It is a GUN, so it fills the need of "having a gun to bring to the gunfight". Do I carry something else for CCW? YES. I carry a .357. Do I feel "outgunned" with just the Nagant? NO. If I ever had the unfortunate need to use it in a gunfight, I dunno about you, but my intention would still be to win. Would you clean that gun loaded and aimed at your face? If not, it's obviously dangerous enough for my purposes. And what are those? To have an $80.00 beater gun with 7 shots I can leave in my truck all day, and if someone steals it, at least it wasn't my 586 or something else that was more than 300 bucks.

Yo comprende? BTW, I don't give a crap about "cool".

 

[Cosmoline]

... I just noticed from the other thread that CZ.22 is apparently a MINOR, so no CCW for you! You need to get a few more years under your belt before you can put a revolver there.

 

[RandomMan]

I don't recall anyone suggesting the Nagant as a primary self-defense weapon. I agree that there are many more weapons that are considerably better choices. However, I can think of quite a few weapons that are less suitable for defense than the Nagant. Any single action revolver in .22, most .22 and .25 caliber semi-autos, and probably the best one out of the bunch a Jennings in .380. I had the last one for a short time on a cheap gun kick and it would've worked better as a hammer than as a gun. At least when I squeeze the trigger on a Nagant, I know it's gonna go bang at the end of the stroke.

As for missing the target, I've been shooting Nagants for 6 or 7 years and I haven't missed yet. No, it's not the double action pull on my Colt Agent, or the pull on my Smithy M64 DAO, but it's quite usable with some practice. I wouldn't get in the way of a Russian soldier armed with one, any day of the week.

-Rob

 

[bill larry]

... I just noticed from the other thread that CZ.22 is apparently a MINOR, so no CCW for you! You need to get a few more years under your belt before you can put a revolver there.

Doh!

 

[Piedmont Plinker]

Did I say anything about CCW? NO!!!!!!!! Even my defense scenario featured someone in college, when, at age 21, I could carry.
Besides, if I wanted to CC, I'd get a quality weapon that I can bet my life on every time. I'm talking about a gun to keep in the sock drawer in case something goes bump in the nigh, so you won't miss it if it gets confiscated, or the school tries to take it away.
Plan for the future.

 

[Cosmoline]

Fair enough. No offense intended, I just like to CMA in these matters

 

[steelhead]

Hi Point in 9mm will fulfill your needs better than the Nagant.

 

[sumoj275]

I had a Nagant a while back and used it as a fishing/outdoor gun with .32 Long. It was pretty accurate and put an end to many turtles and a water mosicane. Like a dummy I got rid of it but picked another one up a few weekends ago on trade. Took it out last night and it was not near as accurate as the other one was. I got the dies and stuff coming to try my hand at loading some better ammo. Will keep updated.