National gun registry question.

[lilguy]

https://thetexan.news/atf-says-it-h...led-in-response-to-congressman-cloud-inquiry/

Heard about this information. I understood that organized government “registration” of all guns was illegal. I would think 4473s would be available for the ATF to scrutinize as they saw fit. Illinois has their own form one must fill out a time of purchase. Is this collection of records a concern?

 

[kidneyboy]

If you fill out a piece of government paperwork to purchase a firearm you are on record with the government as owning that firearm.

 

[Bob Willman]

As I understand it, some folks in government not friendly to firearm ownership, want to digitize all the 4473s in storage so that they can be searched quickly. This would give the feds a searchable list of gun sales that would be very out of date, but another step closer to registration.

NRA Benefactor member Gold Eagle

 

[Archie]

This is a bit of concern and is not at the same time.

Is: I do not like any 'record' like this at all. Governments (of all nations, throughout history) have used this compiling of information to suppress citizens and give the government more control. This has not happened yet, but it seems to loom on the horizon. I flat don't like it and I don't think any rational citizen should either.

Isn't: In the current form, the records are not greatly dangerous. They are kept by the FFL dealer (a sale between two individuals cannot be tracked federally) and those agents who have a warrant based on probable cause can search for a specific item. When an FFL closes, all the records to to Washington DC (ATF central) and are kept indefinitely. In a building much like the one housing the Ark of the Covenant in "Raiders of the Lost Ark". Such records exist, but are not quick or convenient to search.

There are more urgent things to consider.

 

[1942bull]

In PA a firearm purchase requires not only a federal NICS check but also a PA PICS check whickmis conducted by the PA State Police. So the PASP has a record of. Every Sale made at a PA FFL. I have never heard of an abuse of those records. The STF has access to many millions of 4473 forms, and has had that access for decades. I am unaware of any abuse of this records. I have been listening to the cries of fear that the government is going to take our guns away since the 1980s. Have ot seen any sigmas of that happening during all those years. Maybe I am just a foolish old man, but I just don’t see the government confiscating legally purchased firearms. Ghost guns being the exception.

 

[Anchorite]

In PA a firearm purchase requires not only a federal NICS check but also a PA PICS check whickmis conducted by the PA State Police. So the PASP has a record of. Every Sale made at a PA FFL. I have never heard of an abuse of those records. The STF has access to many millions of 4473 forms, and has had that access for decades. I am unaware of any abuse of this records. I have been listening to the cries of fear that the government is going to take our guns away since the 1980s. Have ot seen any sigmas of that happening during all those years. Maybe I am just a foolish old man, but I just don’t see the government confiscating legally purchased firearms. Ghost guns being the exception.

It might just be that the key here is, “legally purchased firearms.” As long as the purchase was conducted according to the law at the time, what’s the basis for a confiscation? It seems to me that any such “confiscation” would never work - it would have to be a straight forward and outright total ban on the sale in the first place.

 

[hso]

We've had two threads based on the breitbart and Washington Examiner articles concerning the scanning of Out Of Business Records piling up at the BATFE. When an FFL closes business the records go to the BATFE. That's millions and millions of pieces of paper stacking up. In the old days you'd convert them to microfilm to reduce volume (remember reading on microfilm readers at the library as a kid?). The modern equivalent is scan and store them as images. You may do this at home with old records so you have a copy stored somewhere against a disaster destroying your home.

So, you scan the records from a closed FFL. Does that mean they're accessible or just as big a mess as your vacation photos? If you "index" them so you know the ID of the FFL you should be able to then file them electronically under that ID like the paper copies or books in a library. That's a piece of data the scans are associated with. What if you add the name, date of submission, last address of the business. Those are now pieces of data associated with those scans so you can find them. When you store vacation pictures you probably do something like that. That's all benign. What about the information on the forms being scanned in? The ones that link buyer with firearm?

There are laws prohibiting THAT information linking you and a firearm on those records from being put into a "registry", a "database". There's nothing new about the law and there's nothing new about the concern about that information being abused and there's really nothing new about scanning in old records and indexing them so you can find them just like the paper records that are piling up.

The letter that is the basis of all this repeated concern about a rule change possibly maybe "paving the way" for such a database is a response to the Congress-critter from the ATF saying they know they're prohibited from creating such a registry and denying that any prohibited information like that is being collected and put into a database in violation of Federal law.

And THAT question and letter and denial is nothing new either since it has been asked before about whether ATF is sorting through those records at shops or in the OBR center and collecting individual gun/gunowner information in violation of laws prohibiting it.

We should always be suspicious of government exceeding the authority we've given it and especially by bureaucracies that operate out of sight. That's why we have oversight agencies to watch them and why we ask and expect elected officials to poke around in areas of interest to us so those bureaucracies know they're being monitored against exceeding their authority or violating restrictions we've had placed on them. We should also expect some politicians of overstating or conflating that information to create concern beyond that which is warranted. IOW, read everything like this with a critical eye with the recognition that someone will attempt to exploit you with how they tell the story.

 

[Jim Watson]

The record of a background check is not supposed to be retained. I suspect they are copied to some non-NICS outfit for "audit". So it can be readily determined that John Q. Public bought a handgun from Acme Industries on February 2, 2020. A call to the local BATF office and a visit to Acme to look in the bound book or 4473 file brings up John's address and a description of his pistol. Customer protection fails in three steps.

 

[Megawatt maker]

In PA a firearm purchase requires not only a federal NICS check but also a PA PICS check whickmis conducted by the PA State Police. So the PASP has a record of. Every Sale made at a PA FFL. I have never heard of an abuse of those records. The STF has access to many millions of 4473 forms, and has had that access for decades. I am unaware of any abuse of this records. I have been listening to the cries of fear that the government is going to take our guns away since the 1980s. Have ot seen any sigmas of that happening during all those years. Maybe I am just a foolish old man, but I just don’t see the government confiscating legally purchased firearms. Ghost guns being the exception.

PA State Police is one of, if not the most, professional police forces in the nation. They have a long record of staying out of politics, and in fact, they even get pretty pissy if an outsider is appointed to the head of their ranks...case in point, when Governor Wolf was installed, he tried to appoint a well known antigun moron from Maryland to be in charge of the PSP...they fought him tooth and nail till his appointment was withdrawn.

The PA state police is the EXCEPTION, not the rule.
You can't come close to saying that about the ATF..who are very well known to be partisan hacks who will pull at any string to get more power.

They can not...can never be...and WILL not ever be trusted to hold a national registry.

This must be STOPED....NOW...RIGHT NOW! Before it does indeed (and it WILL) be used to nefarious ends!

 

[jmorris]

I don’t see any problem with it. Historically the .gov never over steps the boundaries set for it…

You know, on second thought, there is a reason they don’t already have it digitized in a searchable database…maybe that’s reason is more important to research, that just shrug one’s shoulders and say “why not? They already know everything else about me.”

Also shows you why they want all private firearms transfers to be recorded as well. Once that is a law, they can come knocking on your door and if you don’t have the firearm they are looking for, after all you bought it first, they take you into custody and their records matter a lot more than they would today.

We have seen more evidence of weaponization of .gov agencies that any rational person would need to be convinced of the possibility, in just the last few years.

If you need a little more, how do you feel about this?

https://www.businessinsider.com/gun...r-publishes-their-names-and-addresses-2012-12

 

[AlexanderA]

If you fill out a piece of government paperwork to purchase a firearm you are on record with the government as owning that firearm.

Correction: you are on record as buying that firearm. The government (in most states) has no way of knowing what happens to that gun subsequently.

 

[AlexanderA]

As I understand it, some folks in government not friendly to firearm ownership, want to digitize all the 4473s in storage so that they can be searched quickly.

Considering the "dead storage" of defunct dealer records, the terrible condition that they are in, the fact that records of even ongoing dealers can be destroyed after 20 years, etc., digitizing even a majority of them would be an impossible task. And even if it could be done, the government would be drowning in a surfeit of useless information (see my previous answer).

 

[lilguy]

I’m in Illinois. I have a FOID card so I can participate legally in the firearms world. Also have a CCW license and a Curio and Relics license. All this acquired over 50 years in the shooting sports. They’ve known who I am for all that time. They just implemented a state sales transaction form tying the purchaser to the gun, been filling those out now for several years. Also have somer FFLs who use electronic 4473s, this is new.
Like so many aspect of modern life, what is known about us is pretty extensive if we’ve ever filled out a form and signed it.

 

[Jim Watson]

I think central registration is like the meme of the vicious but tiny Australian beast; "He can't kill you, but he wants to."
Our Beloved Leaders would like to register all guns, gun owners, and transfers.
They can't but what they can do is selective persecution for the chilling effect.

 

[kidneyboy]

Correction: you are on record as buying that firearm. The government (in most states) has no way of knowing what happens to that gun subsequently.

See post #10

 

[PapaG]

In Illinois, your background check goes through the state police. Information sent includes: name, foid number, birthdays AND, type of firearm but not brand, serial, etc.
So, the ISP knows when, how many and what genetic kind of firearm. Also, f-t-f sales are supposed to go through ISP. In addition, if that isn't enough, there is an additional form with your, the guns info and the intended use.
I had to do at least one trace a week for the BATFEwhen I was working.
If the feds want, they can find out every gun you ever bought (since about '68) from a ffl.
This additional records revelation doesn't fill me with confidence.

 

[DustyGmt]

I have a question as well that I think is pertinent to this thread in a way, but I've always wondered if say, the feds or local authorities launched an investigation into me or any private citizen, and they were just poking around for Intel for suspected wrongdoing or were suiting up for a raid, would they have the 4473 information at their disposal to see if they were storming into an armed household or are they only able to operate under the assumption of "subject is likely to be armed" or can they definitively see all your purchase records and say for instance " 4473 records indicate subject is known to have purchased 4 AR15's, 6 shotguns and a Glock 17, etc...."?

 

[wiscoaster]

"Registry" is just a word. It can be whatever you want it defined to be. If the law prohibits a "registry" and "registration", that doesn't prevent them from aquiring, digitizing, storing, manipulating, searching and making use of the data that's already freely available to them already, now does it? They just don't have to identify the data and the way it's used as a "registry" and "registration" and then they're technically in compliance with the law, no? Maybe the law isn't specific enough. It's my understanding that linkage between a serial number and an individual is permitted only when the serial number involved is the subject of a criminal investigation. To say that linkage doesn't already exist is a lack of understanding data and databases. It's when and how it's allowed to be used that perhaps the law needs to be more specific about.

If it's any consolation, government bureacracies have never been very good about organizing and making efficient and intelligent use of the data they collect, so to worry about them using this data to be able to come and get your guns is probably something you don't have to waste your time and mental energy worrying about.

 

[Encoreman]

Take this for what it is worth. A few years back I saw a program on T.V. about all the 4473 forms and ledger books that the BATFE were tasked with keeping. The building was overflowing with all this paper and infact they had 18 wheeler containers in the parking lot filled to the top with all of this paper. According to the program the BATFE were forbidden to put the paperwork onto computers. Now whether that is true or not I don't know. The show also said all the T.V. shows showing a policeman calling and asking about a certain weapon or person isn't the way it happens.

 

[AK Hunter]

Maybe I am just a foolish old man, but I just don’t see the government confiscating legally purchased firearms. Ghost guns being the exception.

It will be very hard to confiscate some thing that they have a record of. That is the reason behind the Ghost guns. Totally legal to build & own in most states but the government knows nothing about them.

 

[starling]

I have a question as well that I think is pertinent to this thread in a way, but I've always wondered if say, the feds or local authorities launched an investigation into me or any private citizen, and they were just poking around for Intel for suspected wrongdoing or were suiting up for a raid, would they have the 4473 information at their disposal to see if they were storming into an armed household or are they only able to operate under the assumption of "subject is likely to be armed" or can they definitively see all your purchase records and say for instance " 4473 records indicate subject is known to have purchased 4 AR15's, 6 shotguns and a Glock 17, etc...."?

Answer is Yes including serial numbers for those firearms. Also online purchases...ammo, optics etc.. Also social media info.

 

[starling]

It will be very hard to confiscate some thing that they have a record of. That is the reason behind the Ghost guns. Totally legal to build & own in most states but the government knows nothing about them.

I anticipate lots of visits for firearms owners who have purchased 3d printers or polymer glockish/AR type 80% build kits

 

[AK Hunter]

I anticipate lots of visits for firearms owners who have purchased 3d printers or polymer glockish/AR type 80% build kits

How would anyone know who purchased those type kits? There is no record of them, as far as the government knows you are buying parts.

 

[starling]

How would anyone know who purchased those type kits? There is no record of them, as far as the government knows you are buying parts.

Might be possible if you purchased one at a gun show with cash or face to face and never spoke about it online. ATF field agents are pretty thorough when they investigate someone. If you used a credit card or put something on your social media about it... forget it. Even money orders can be traced.

Just because something is legal does not mean its the smart thing to do.

 

[AK Hunter]

Might be possible if you purchased one at a gun show with cash or face to face and never spoke about it online. ATF field agents are pretty thorough when they investigate someone. If you used a credit card or put something on your social media about it... forget it. Even money orders can be traced.

Just because something is legal does not mean its the smart thing to do.

If you don't exercise your rights you will loose them. Wouldn't that be illegal for them to investigate someone doing legal activitys? I think that's call entrapment.