National Parks are not State Parks!

Status
Not open for further replies.

NavyLCDR

member
Joined
Dec 14, 2005
Messages
7,677
Location
Stanwood, WA
Where did this rumor start? That in order to be legal to carry in a National Park within a state, one must comply with State Park statutes within that state? A question was asked on another forum, "Can I carry in a National Park in Texas after Feb. 22?". The answer that was given by another internet lawyer was that Texas does not prohibit firearms in State Parks, so National Parks would be OK. What the heck do State Park regulations have to do with anything in a National Park?

For instance, it is my understand that in Virginia, carrying firearms is limited in State Parks to concealed carry by license holders. However, in "common" areas of Virginia, open carry is legal with no license, therefore, in a National Park in Virginia, why would open carry without a license not be legal in the National Park?

State Parks are not National Parks and National Parks are not State Parks!
 
NavyLT, When the Interior Dept was talking about changing their Rules/Regs last year the draft regs stated that they were considering going with the state laws on carrying in state parks in the state for the rules/regs for carrying in National Parks in that state. They changed that in their final rule/reg and made it state if you could carry legally concealed in the state the National Park was in you could carry a concealed handgun in the National Parks in that state. This is the rule/reg the Brady bunch got thrown out by a federal judge.

But they were talking about making their reg the same as state park carry in the states the National Park was in. That is where it got started. I still hear it every now and then but that is not in the new law. Also you may still hear that you have to conceal any firearm you carry in a National Park. The first rule/reg the Interior adopted did only apply to concealed carry and that was the only way you could carry in a National Park.

The new law that passed just states you are legal to carry in the National Parks as you are able to carry in the state the National Park is located in. If you can open carry in a state you can open carry in a National Park in that state. In some states you can outside carry a handgun and in some you can sling a rifle or shotgun over your shoulder and carry that in National Parks. Again it depends on the State Laws the National Park is in.
 
Starting on February 22nd, you will be able to carry a weapon in a National Park if it is legal in acordance with federal, state AND local laws. The state law may make it legal, but if there is a county or city ordinance that prohibits it where you are standing, then it is still prohibited.

That applies to both concealed and open carry. This has nothing to do with what you can or cannot do in state parks.
 
Starting on February 22nd, you will be able to carry a weapon in a National Park if it is legal in acordance with federal, state AND local laws. The state law may make it legal, but if there is a county or city ordinance that prohibits it where you are standing, then it is still prohibited.

That applies to both concealed and open carry. This has nothing to do with what you can or cannot do in state parks.
Again, you are not standing in a city, county or state. You are standing in a National Park.
 
Exactly right, EODGuy.

It can make a difference which unit of the National Park system you are in though. Some units are exclusively federal, others are not. http://www.nps.gov will get you to EVERY unit of the National Park System. Each park site will have a section entitled "Management". Open that link and you'll see "Laws and Policies". Open that one and you'll see the information that applies to the park you're in or want to visit.

It will give you contact information for that unit as well. E-mail them or call them for specific answers.
 
No, my understanding is that you simply "must comply with state law", whatever that is - there is NO law that necessarily says that state law is or must be that: whatever law applies in that state's state parks also applies to national parks within that state.

Now, State A or State B *could* create such a law and enforce it if they wanted, but it's not an automatic rule of this new federal law, in my understanding. Absent a specific provision to the contrary, whatever you could or couldn't carry down the street in front of your house is what you can or cannot carry in the national park within your state.
 
The laws applying to state parks have nothing to do with it.:banghead:

Public Law 111-24 Section 512 makes no mention of state parks, because it addresses units of the National Park Service and National Wildlife Refuges managed by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. Both are under the direction of the Secretary of the Interior, who has exactly zero say in what happens in the state parks of the United Staes.
 
TexasRifleman said:
Because people can't read.....

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow said:
No, my understanding is that you simply "must comply with state law", whatever that is - there is NO law that necessarily says that state law is or must be that: whatever law applies in that state's state parks also applies to national parks within that state.

I must be one of those that can't read, because nowhere in the new Federal statute regarding National Parks do I see ANYTHING even remotely mentioning State Parks and state park regulations/prohibitions. :banghead:
 
NavyLT said:
I must be one of those that can't read, because nowhere in the new Federal statute regarding National Parks do I see ANYTHING even remotely mentioning State Parks and state park regulations/prohibitions.

No, it appears your reading is fine. You can't read it because it isn't in there :)
 
State Parks are not mentioned in the Law. It was mentioned very early in the process when the Interior Dept was talking about changing their Rules/Regulations. It was dropped and the Interior Dept went with the state laws in effect in the state the NP is located in. When the Interior Dept first proposed the new Rules/Regulations there was much talk about State Park Carry being applied to NP carry. That is where the confusion is coming from.

You must go by the laws of the State where the National Park is located. But there is a few problems with that in specific areas. Illinois and Wisconsin have no carry law so carry in NP in those to states is Illegal. But New York is a problem. If someone has a permit from lets say the Buffalo Area they can carry in NP in NY. But a permit issued outside the 5 counties that make up New York City are not valid in New York City without a NYC endorsement on their permit/license. So you can have a permit/license from NY State outside of NYC and you can't carry at the Statue Of Liberty (Run by the Interior Dept) as it is in NYC unless you have the NYC endorsement to your permit/license to carry.

Now take Yellowstone NP. It is located in Wyoming, Idaho and Montana. If you have lets say a NC permit/license to carry you can carry in the parts of Yellowstone that are in Idaho and Montana as your NC permit is valid there. But Wyoming does not honor the NC permit/license so you can't carry in the parts of Yellowstone in Wyoming.

It boils down to this. If you can legally carry in the state or local area the park is located in you can carry in the NP. But you must be aware of the limitations in some areas like NYC and Parks in more than one state. The same applies to open carry of a handgun or carrying of Long guns openly. If you can do that in the state or local area the NP is located in you can do it in the NP.

There will be problems but they will get ironed out. As for carrying in federal buildings in NP there is a Fed Law that covers that. They have to inform you of what buildings are off limits. The federal law is below. They have to post the buildings. If they are not posted they can not charge you with carrying there if you are caught. I will say that in some parks they will post just about every building when they don't have the right to do that. In others they will just post those buildings that meet the criteria as a federal building. In some parks I believe the government will tell all those private contractors to post their buildings if they want to stay in business in their park. In others they will leave it up to the private contractors. Things will get ironed out in the long run and there will be few problems.

18 USC Sec. 930 01/03/2007

TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I - CRIMES
CHAPTER 44 - FIREARMS

Sec. 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities

(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.
(b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon be used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
(c) A person who kills any person in the course of a violation of subsection (a) or (b), or in the course of an attack on a Federal facility involving the use of a firearm or other dangerous weapon, or attempts or conspires to do such an act, shall be punished as provided in sections 1111, 1112, 1113, and 1117.
(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to -
(1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;
(2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or
(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.
(e)
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm in a Federal court facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to conduct which is described in paragraph (1) or (2) of subsection (d).
(f) Nothing in this section limits the power of a court of the United States to punish for contempt or to promulgate rules or orders regulating, restricting, or prohibiting the possession of weapons within any building housing such court or any of its proceedings, or upon any grounds appurtenant to such building.
(g) As used in this section:
(1) The term "Federal facility" means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.
(2) The term "dangerous weapon" means a weapon, device, instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a blade of less than 2 1/2 inches in length.
(3) The term "Federal court facility" means the courtroom, judges' chambers, witness rooms, jury deliberation rooms, attorney conference rooms, prisoner holding cells, offices of the court clerks, the United States attorney, and the United States marshal, probation and parole offices, and adjoining corridors of any court of the United States.
(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.
 
It says that you cannot be "Convicted" of the crime, it still alllows you to be charged with the crime. It will take months for the US Attorneys Office to do the paperwork. Meanwhile your firearm will likely be taken as evidence until the release is ordered by the court.
 
I believe that Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow just wasn't clear.

From what I read, he was saying that a state COULD pass a law that would make NP carry regs in that state equivalent to state park carry laws, and the the NPS would honor that.

No state has such a law, currently, and Dr. THW did not suggest that any do. I give the California State Legislature about two weeks to introduce such a bill, though (trail carrying, or even having a loaded gun at a campsite, are prohibited in California State Parks).
 
BTW one of the greatest impacts of this law will be felt in places where NPS-administered lands dot the landscape. It means that you can carry on your canoe in Utah when the river passes through a National Park. It means I don't have to worry about committing a Federal crime if I have a CC gun on me when I stop to check out one of the thousand places where Lewis and Clark took a crap or some idiot opened fire without provocation on some Indians and got his whole group massacred.

The battle for RKBA will still be fought state by state, though. This doesn't change that.
 
Well, here is an answer from one of the persons on another forum who thought state park regulations would apply in the national parks:

Mr. K.,

The federal law related to firearms in national parks applies state law in
the determination of whether or not a firearm can be carried in a national
park. Since state parks are not national parks, the answer would be that
the prohibition in state parks does not apply to national parks. This is a
common question, and the main distinction is that in Texas the law refers
specifically to state parks, not parks in general or all parks.

Philip Selleck
Chief of Regulations
 
I can understand the misunderstanding...

From MGO and this would be easy to misread this if you just skimmed it...
Q: Can I carry my concealed pistol in National Parks?

A: In short, soon. On May 22, 2009, President Obama signed the "Credit Card Accountability, Reliability and Disclosure Act of 2009" as part of the package of bills ostensibly meant to partially restructure credit practices in the United States. Contained in the bill in Section 512 was an amendment entitled "Protecting Americans From Violent Crime." Like many bills, it contained "Congressional Findings" including "(1) The Second Amendment to the Constitution provides that 'the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.'"

It refers to CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) Title 36, Section 2.4(a)(1) and Section 27.42 of Title 50, which for many years prohibited the possession and carrying of essentially all weapons in National Parks or Wildlife Refuges. The law amends those sections to add the following language: "(h) Notwithstanding any other provision in this Chapter, a person may possess, carry, and transport concealed, loaded, and operable firearms within a national park area in accordance with the laws of the state in which the national park area, or that portion thereof, is located, except as otherwise prohibited by applicable Federal law."

So, essentially, the National Parks and National Wildlife Refuges will now be subject to the concealed pistol laws of the states in which they are located. The new law takes effect on February 22, 2010.

But, the picture is not yet crystal-clear. The NRA Institute For Legislative Action (www.NRAILA.org) points out, "However, many details remain to be worked out. Reports indicate that National Park Service officials are debating issues such as the definition of federal facilities, where firearms will remain prohibited under a different federal law."

So, while the Amendment was an important step in clarifying the law and bringing consistency to the legal environment for those of us with CPLs, it is important to note that there will probably be "facilities" within Parks and Wildlife Refuges where our lawful concealed pistols will still be prohibited.

The history of this law is interesting in that these changes were briefly implemented by a rules change under the Bush administration from January 9, 2009 until March 19, 2009, when the US District Court in DC issued an injunction preserving the old rules that prohibited self-defense firearms in the 83,600,000 acres of National Park System land and 90,790,000 acres under the jurisdiction of the US Fish and Wildlife Service. Congress saw fit to act by passing the amendment to the Credit Card Accountability Act as a way to clarify the situation and take the question out of the hands of the courts. While there appears to be no connection between credit cards and concealed pistols, it should be noted that such apparently non-related amendments are common in Congress. In fact, a late amendment to the 1986 Firearms Owners Protection Act (FOPA) is responsible for artificially limiting the supply of transferable fully-automatic firearms in the United States. This time, however, the amendment in question cuts in the direction of common sense and safety, rather than the direction of irrational fear and paranoia.
________________________________________
 
Feb 22 if the state you are in allows open carry you may open carry in a National Park in that state. If that state has concealed carry laws you may carry concealed in a National Park as their state law allows. The federal law change does not have anything to do with state parks or concealed carry requirements. The reference to concealed carry was in Dept. of Interior regulation change that was reversed by a court ruling, not the rider on the credit card regulations passed by congress.
 
Here's the actual text of the law that goes into effect on Feb 22:

(b) Protecting the Right of Individuals To Bear arms in Units of the National Park System and the National Wildlife Refuge System- The Secretary of the Interior shall not promulgate or enforce any regulation that prohibits an individual from possessing a firearm including an assembled or functional firearm in any unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System if--​
(1) the individual is not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing the firearm; and

(2) the possession of the firearm is in compliance with the law of the State in which the unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System is located.​
 
Legislation has been introduced in Maine that would prohibit open or concealed carry in National Parks within the state.
 
Legislation has been introduced in Maine that would prohibit open or concealed carry in National Parks within the state.
States have no jurisdiction to regulate activity in National Parks. Even though the State and the Feds may have concurrent jurisdiction to enforce each other's laws, the State cannot pass a law that says you cannot carry on federal property, it simply does not have such authority.

If they have/pass a law that says you cannot carry in 'parks' it would not have any effect on carry in National Parks, because NP's are not really part of the state. They exist within states, but are not part of the state.
 
brboyer,

Then exactly how do you explain this phrase in the new Federal law?

(2) the possession of the firearm is in compliance with the law of the State in which the unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System is located.

You say a state can't regulate possession of firearms in a National Park, and CLEARLY the Federal statute DOES give them that ability.

And we have this official explanation as well:

Mr. K.,

The federal law related to firearms in national parks applies state law in
the determination of whether or not a firearm can be carried in a national
park.
Since state parks are not national parks, the answer would be that
the prohibition in state parks does not apply to national parks. This is a
common question, and the main distinction is that in Texas the law refers
specifically to state parks, not parks in general or all parks.

Philip Selleck
Chief of Regulations
 
the State cannot pass a law that says you cannot carry on federal property, it simply does not have such authority.

In this case states didn't pass any laws saying you can carry on federal property, the Federal government says they will mirror the state law of carry "in general" elsewhere in the state.

This isn't nearly as complicated as people are making it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top