Thus proving the law of unintended consequences. My intent was to get ideas to get my wife over her 'it can't happen to me' mindset, and that happened pretty much on its own. But, the tactics discussion has been very useful, if somewhat painful at times.
Nearly shot my wife!
- Thread starter danprkr
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Thus proving the law of unintended consequences. My intent was to get ideas to get my wife over her 'it can't happen to me' mindset, and that happened pretty much on its own. But, the tactics discussion has been very useful, if somewhat painful at times.
MariusDP51
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If someone breaks into your house to steal from you, he is not there to ambush and kill you. His primary objective will be to - as stealthely (is that a word?hehehe) as possible - take your belongings and leave. He is not planning on waking you and fighting you. That would be the worst case scenario for him as well. Should he wake you, he will have to find cover in a hurry, which means it will probably not be good cover, and he will probably make some noise trying to find this cover in the dark/unknown space he finds himself in. All of this is just my opinion, and I'd like to hear yours.
If someone enters your home with the primary intention to kill you, you're in real trouble.
If someone enters your home with the primary intention to kill you, you're in real trouble.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
And once again I will state that I'm supremely happy that she and I are now working on these plans etc. That is the one good thing to have happened out of all of this.
Which is the primary reason this thread is still running.
Just basing this on what I've read here and not confirmed, I would expect that a homeowner v BG the homeowner would have somewhat of an advantage due to knowing the turf. As opposed to LEO v BG because the LEO would also not know the turf and be as hamstrung by that lack of knowledge as the BG. Just guessing of course.
It would only take the price of two inexpensive Airsoft spring pistols, some basic protective gear and the assistance of any teen or twentysomething male you happen to know well enough to invite to be the bad guy in your home playing 'burglar vs. homeowner' to disabuse you of that notion.
However, I think you're happy enough with the myths you have embraced, and will therefore do nothing likely to introduce any unpleasant reality... Just guessing, of course
.
lpl (you only have to lose once...)
Which is the primary reason this thread is still running.
Just basing this on what I've read here and not confirmed, I would expect that a homeowner v BG the homeowner would have somewhat of an advantage due to knowing the turf. As opposed to LEO v BG because the LEO would also not know the turf and be as hamstrung by that lack of knowledge as the BG. Just guessing of course.
It would only take the price of two inexpensive Airsoft spring pistols, some basic protective gear and the assistance of any teen or twentysomething male you happen to know well enough to invite to be the bad guy in your home playing 'burglar vs. homeowner' to disabuse you of that notion.
However, I think you're happy enough with the myths you have embraced, and will therefore do nothing likely to introduce any unpleasant reality... Just guessing, of course
.lpl (you only have to lose once...)
Guillermo
member
This thread has been interesting
If nothing else I have gone over our plan again
If nothing else I have gone over our plan again
In the vast majority of cases, unless you are competing for marketshare in an illicit business or you have not paid a debt to a criminal, that's undoubtedly true.
HOWEVER--You can bet that if you happen upon him with gun in hand, particularly if you have come between him and his point of egress, you may indeed have a fight on your hands.
He may also decide to let you gather the valuables for which he has come.
I still do not want to walk into his ambush.
Yep, but I'm in real trouble if I happen upon a desperate intruder who is there to get resources to get a fix for his habit.
One violent intruder came into my house to continue an argument with a female with whom he had been having some kind of disagreement. When asked to leave, he armed himself with a makeshift contact weapon and threatened murder. I had no choice--I went into the room and got him out.
I don't know this, but it seems reasonable to me to assume that if someone does unlawfully enter a home that he knows to be occupied, he is probably rather inclined toward violence regardless of his primary motive.
This comes up in my training class from time to time in gun and knife defense practice. If the person holding the gun on you from behind is "twitchy" such that they're going to pull the trigger the instant they detect movement, it's pretty hard to win. But, that is not a realistic exercise.
To take a single real-life example, the BG is behind you at the ATM and jams a gun between your shoulder blades and says, "take out all your money and give it to me." OK. If he wanted to shoot you he could just have shot you before coming in close. The BG doesn't want to kill you - he wants compliance and is using the weapon as an enforcement tool.
In this case, if you choose to react with a combative maneuver, the BG will have to become aware that you are not complying and are doing something unexpected. Maybe you'll have .5 seconds of reaction time to work with. That's not the "twitchy game" where he expects you to defend and will shoot the instant you move a muscle.
The airsoft exercise you suggest is similar. If the attacker in the home-breaching scenario is planning to kill the defender, then the defender should do what the conventional wisdom suggests is the best strategy and tactics: hide in a defended position and call for help. I do not disagree - that's clearly the best option against the widest range of threats. No need for a run-through, because that's logically correct.
In my case, I've got little worth stealing, have no contact with the criminal element, live in a very safe area in a very defended neighborhood on one of the best-situated properties. The risk of a dangerous home-invasion is virtually nil. The odds of an odd sound somewhere being something I can safely investigate are in my favor.
Now, if I lived in a high-crime area, if there were a team of criminals working my neighborhood, if I were a drugs dealer, if I had low-life acquaintances, if I had a large stash of jewels and valuables, if I were a likely target for whatever reason and there was an increased level of danger then of course I'd alter my strategies appropriately - so no foul there.
But as a general matter, this is my home and property and I'll patrol my premises in the manner of my choosing. Checking out noises and investigating suspicious activity is part of being a capable adult and I accept that responsibility. It's part of why I own firearms. You have to allow for individuals to adopt strategies in keeping with their particular circumstances.
Aside from the home lighting, locks, storm doors, alarm systems and so forth, your house needs to be made to contain a shooting lane from the Master bedroom, or which ever room that you are going to call the police from and cover your loved ones. In some houses, that may be the stair well, in others the hall to the "sleeping quarters", it really depends on how your house is set up.
In my house, the bedrooms are on the north side, the other rooms on the south, bridged by a living room. I have positioned book cases in the bedrooms hall facing wall to stop bullets shot into those rooms. Any shot would be glancing, BTW, as firing straight down the hall will put rounds into a bathroom door jam.
Anyway, if you hear a noise, cover the door and wait. If after 5 or 10 minutes you hear nothing, then go an check it out. The point is that you do not need to engage on the move, when you can wait and if you have to engage 1) the police are on the way 2) your chances of success go up 3) it is pretty clear that the assailant meant you bodily harm, as he made his way through the house to your bedroom where he was shot.
Clearing a house is the most dangerous thing that you can do. I will say it again, clearing a house is INCREDIBLY DANGEROUS. It takes more than one person, typically 4 people, using team tactics. Hollywood makes it look neat, but you need to remember that in NCIS / 24 and all those shows, if someone were to engage, at least one of those officers would be dead. That is why you need at least 4 to do it properly, and those 4 need to have training, so that if someone pops out, he goes down.
In my house, the bedrooms are on the north side, the other rooms on the south, bridged by a living room. I have positioned book cases in the bedrooms hall facing wall to stop bullets shot into those rooms. Any shot would be glancing, BTW, as firing straight down the hall will put rounds into a bathroom door jam.
Anyway, if you hear a noise, cover the door and wait. If after 5 or 10 minutes you hear nothing, then go an check it out. The point is that you do not need to engage on the move, when you can wait and if you have to engage 1) the police are on the way 2) your chances of success go up 3) it is pretty clear that the assailant meant you bodily harm, as he made his way through the house to your bedroom where he was shot.
Clearing a house is the most dangerous thing that you can do. I will say it again, clearing a house is INCREDIBLY DANGEROUS. It takes more than one person, typically 4 people, using team tactics. Hollywood makes it look neat, but you need to remember that in NCIS / 24 and all those shows, if someone were to engage, at least one of those officers would be dead. That is why you need at least 4 to do it properly, and those 4 need to have training, so that if someone pops out, he goes down.
Seattleimport
Member
Thankfully, the OP did not respond in such a way when his wife popped out.
I jest, but it illustrates the other reason clearing is dangerous: the risk of shooting a loved one.
Seattleimport
Member
EDIT: double post
We weren't training SWAT or LE or Operators or anyone "special". The people that took the course were home-owners, business-owners and the occasional LEO that was interested in something different. Local SWAT teams trained at their facilities, but some did come to play "guest" bad guys and we all learned a lot from them and the patrol cops and even the business owners and home owners that had survived dealing with BGs.
The lead instructor was a "retired" SF E7 and a graduate and member of the Nine Lives Association. He had guest instructors from local LE come in from time to time to keep things fresh. Everything was focused on folks like the members here surviving violent encounters on the street, in their businesses and in their homes. No ninjas.
I dearly wish that the course was still taught and that I still was "forced" to give up a couple of weekends a month to get shot at with simunitions by folks learning valuable lessons. I learned much more than I expected taking it and assisting with it.
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You aren't crazy - you're perfectly normal and would do what any reasonable person would do in the absence of any particular reason to be alarmed.
Sure. I'd love to take that course myself. In fact, there's a company offering something similar to this in my town and when I have time I'll try to attend. Training is always worthwhile.
Like I said, though, if you're playing a "twitchy game," then you're practicing for a worst-case scenario that's highly unlikely. BGs entering your home are maybe looking for a home-invasion robbery. Something like this, perhaps.
The invaders are after merchandise, they aren't on a "kill everything in the home" mission, as you might have in an airsoft exercise. So investigating suspicious activity is a reasonable move and I could probably up my game a bit by carrying a weapon when I do this, but going straight to barricade and calling 911 is overkill barring further evidence of danger.
In thinking this situation through, I'm seeing a great benefit in having the other armed person stay with you, and splitting up as in the original scenario from the OP isn't a compelling move. Good to have someone to watch your back, good to have double the firepower if needed.
Cameras have proven effective and there are cases you can view on youtube showing the in-home CCTV giving warning of intruders to good effect. I wouldn't want to have to live like that, though, in such circumstances that I need to survielle my property like that. Too "Sky Mall Catalog."
Whatever they came in for, they're also on a "don't get caught, don't get shot" mission.
Doesn't follow. If the "suspicious activity" indicates the potential for bad guys being in the house, going after them is not a reasonable move, and calling 911 is not overkill.
The great thing that we did was to avoid the "twitchy game" problem. Not all scenarios we ran the students through were violent home invasions or street confrontations. Many times a don't shoot solution was the better one. Introducing realism isn't just making every scenario a lethal response requirement. The favorite student we had entered "his house" to encounter a loud somewhat belligerent drunk already there (me) ranting about how he'd come into the wrong house and how the poker game had already broke up. The student apologized and withdrew while keeping me in view and closed the front door. We asked him what he was doing and his response was, "Going to the neighbor's house to call the cops to get that crazy drunk outa my house." GOLD STAR!
I've found this thread to be quite disconcerting and disappointing. Here we have several people with experience and training who are delivering one consistent message. I'm likely the least experienced of that group (NRA certified instructor for Personal Protection in the Home, Personal Protection Outside the Home, Basic Rifle, Basic Shotgun, Basic Pistol and unranked USPSA competitor), but I'm in the group delivering the right message. We have another group disregarding that message. Do you guys not get it? hso and others know what they're talkin' about... YOU DON'T.
If I hear a noise that's not familiar, I continue to listen... intently. IF after a couple minutes I hear nothing more, then I can start to narrow down the possibilities in my head. Eventually, I may hear nothing long enough that I can decide a rake must have fallen or some-such. No sweat. I may go check it out, but I'm certain it ain't a BG. If, OTOH, I hear it again, or if the first noise was more like a window breaking or a door opening, we got issues. Wife and kids get secured (yes, I'll go through anything to get to them), we hunker down, we listen. The dogs stay out of the room we're in. Those two hounds are nice and all, but they take the first two rounds. Sorry dog lovers. If I or my wife decide we've probably been invaded, we call 5-0. If noises continue but can't readily be ID'd, we call 5-0. Further details are available from multiple resources (PPITH, PPOTH, other classes, F on F training, etc.), but you get the jist of it (or, more presicely, you refuse to get it). All that needs to be said has been said. Some of you will go your whole life with Rambo Syndrome. You'll die of old age, convinced that some of us were over-cautious. I hope and pray you never have that moment - you'll know it if it happens - when you think, "Damn. Why didn't I listen."
One more time, you can't go on offense alone.
If I hear a noise that's not familiar, I continue to listen... intently. IF after a couple minutes I hear nothing more, then I can start to narrow down the possibilities in my head. Eventually, I may hear nothing long enough that I can decide a rake must have fallen or some-such. No sweat. I may go check it out, but I'm certain it ain't a BG. If, OTOH, I hear it again, or if the first noise was more like a window breaking or a door opening, we got issues. Wife and kids get secured (yes, I'll go through anything to get to them), we hunker down, we listen. The dogs stay out of the room we're in. Those two hounds are nice and all, but they take the first two rounds. Sorry dog lovers. If I or my wife decide we've probably been invaded, we call 5-0. If noises continue but can't readily be ID'd, we call 5-0. Further details are available from multiple resources (PPITH, PPOTH, other classes, F on F training, etc.), but you get the jist of it (or, more presicely, you refuse to get it). All that needs to be said has been said. Some of you will go your whole life with Rambo Syndrome. You'll die of old age, convinced that some of us were over-cautious. I hope and pray you never have that moment - you'll know it if it happens - when you think, "Damn. Why didn't I listen."
One more time, you can't go on offense alone.
Guillermo
member
what an arrogant thing to say.
You have no idea as to our experience, training or ideals.
Just who are you to ignore the values of people that are not rabbits and choose not to hide behind a locked door?
That may be the least High Road post that I have ever read.
If I hear a noise and think it's nothing...I go check it out. If I think there is someone in my home, I wait upstairs and call the police. If I go down and get injured...who's left to protect my family now?
Lemme paint a picture: 4 heavily armed and armored soldiers with flashbangs, assault rifles and night vision vs 2 insurgents in a room. And no one thinks this is too much or not needed.
Homeowner with a handgun, flashlight and boxers...vs what ends up being 2 armed intruders downstairs...and this is somehow an acceptable risk to some, just because he has the home advantage? It's the same threat!
Big deal (home advantage), drop a US infantry platoon in some foreign country and give them a few hours to dig, and they'll hold off at least a company if not a battalion. The defender always has a big advantage. In the military we always want at least a 3/1 ratio against our expected enemy force. If we don't have it, we do something else...or more likely use air and/or indirect to attrit them until we get our ratio.
Intruders coming upstairs to me...they are in a world of hurt, and I'm fighting for my family and my life. Me looking for them, well, I can only look one direction at any given instant. It doesn't matter that I know all the places to look since its my home, I have to guess right the first direction I go, or I get shot in the back.
2-4 per room, select fire weapons, armor, maybe shields, diversionary devices...they use them for a reason. I don't train for the scared rabbit that bolts when they hear me. I train for the armed intruders that are going to tie us up, rape my wife and little girls while I watch then kill them, then me. It happens, and I assume that's who's in my home. They invaded my house, it would be foolish for me to base my response and tactics on the (admittedly statistically probable) fact that he/they probably don't want to fight and will leave at the first sign of resistance. If they don't...I may be hosed, then my family.
So...I arm, and I wait at a good point of domination at the top of the stairs. Best tactical position, my turf, I'm on the defense.They better have: 3/1 ratio, armor, diversionary devices. I want them to have to contend with the bad odds that drive SWAT Teams and the military to conduct CQB the way they do. I don't want to turn that formula against myself by being the one on the move, alone, with only 1 set of eyes.
Lemme paint a picture: 4 heavily armed and armored soldiers with flashbangs, assault rifles and night vision vs 2 insurgents in a room. And no one thinks this is too much or not needed.
Homeowner with a handgun, flashlight and boxers...vs what ends up being 2 armed intruders downstairs...and this is somehow an acceptable risk to some, just because he has the home advantage? It's the same threat!
Big deal (home advantage), drop a US infantry platoon in some foreign country and give them a few hours to dig, and they'll hold off at least a company if not a battalion. The defender always has a big advantage. In the military we always want at least a 3/1 ratio against our expected enemy force. If we don't have it, we do something else...or more likely use air and/or indirect to attrit them until we get our ratio.
Intruders coming upstairs to me...they are in a world of hurt, and I'm fighting for my family and my life. Me looking for them, well, I can only look one direction at any given instant. It doesn't matter that I know all the places to look since its my home, I have to guess right the first direction I go, or I get shot in the back.
2-4 per room, select fire weapons, armor, maybe shields, diversionary devices...they use them for a reason. I don't train for the scared rabbit that bolts when they hear me. I train for the armed intruders that are going to tie us up, rape my wife and little girls while I watch then kill them, then me. It happens, and I assume that's who's in my home. They invaded my house, it would be foolish for me to base my response and tactics on the (admittedly statistically probable) fact that he/they probably don't want to fight and will leave at the first sign of resistance. If they don't...I may be hosed, then my family.
So...I arm, and I wait at a good point of domination at the top of the stairs. Best tactical position, my turf, I'm on the defense.They better have: 3/1 ratio, armor, diversionary devices. I want them to have to contend with the bad odds that drive SWAT Teams and the military to conduct CQB the way they do. I don't want to turn that formula against myself by being the one on the move, alone, with only 1 set of eyes.
Just because he's right doesn't make him a rabbit.
You are wrong. Flat. Out. Wrong.
It's your life to lose. I'm done trying to convince folks in this thread that they aren't 10% as good as they think they are. If you haven't tried the force on force scenario mentioned, you should. You will "die", or be lucky.
Luck will get you only so far.
It's a good thing hso has more patience. Maybe his constant repetition will get through to someone.
I come off that way sometimes. Sorry.
Doin' house clearings alone? I have a pretty good idea.
Who am I? I'm the guy who leaves bravado in a drawer next to my old football jersey when I pick up a gun. I'm also the guy who's tried to explain (rather caustically I guess) the best way for us and our loved-ones to survive a break-in.
I stand down, hoping it's always just the neighbor's cat in your garage.
Guillermo
member
you are correct...it is my life
And I am not going to let someone else fight my fight for some cowardly reason whether it is wrapped in some tactical logic or not.
It is ALWAYS easier to justify NOT doing something.
Guillermo
member
Edmund Burke
What madness would drive men with no experience, no training and no practice to do things that experienced, trained and practiced professionals would not even consider except under the most dire of circumstances?
Failure to acknowledge reality or inability to acknowledge reality is not conducive to success.
Failure to acknowledge reality or inability to acknowledge reality is not conducive to success.
MariusDP51
Member
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2010
- Messages
- 80
So what happens when you hide behind your bed and they come after you? Are your chances any better then? Probably,but not by much. Only thing you achieved was dying in the comfort of your bedroom.
I have to wheigh all the experience on this forum up against real-life reports I read every day. In (my guess) 90% of the home attacks I read about, the BGs TURN and RUN as soon as they meet resistance. They too prefer to live to steal another day.
I am sure going to give the "airsoft" role-play a try, I can only learn from that. ALOT.
For those like me who are prepared to be injured or killed to protect my family, one last thought:
I have long ago learned a valuable tip when it comes to calling for help. Because most home owners here are connected to an armed response service, I always tell them to lock all the doors inside their homes whenever they leave home. Should an alarm be triggered, the BG will have to break down every door in the house in order to steal something.
This allows the armed reaction more time to be effective.
Now, adopt this to home intruder scenario and not only will you hinder his movement in your house but you might just narrow his opportunity to ambush you.
I'll be back to report on my role-play outcome. Jus hope the poor bastard I ask to help me has medical 'cause I don't think my staffy will undersand this role-play thing too well... ;-)
I have to wheigh all the experience on this forum up against real-life reports I read every day. In (my guess) 90% of the home attacks I read about, the BGs TURN and RUN as soon as they meet resistance. They too prefer to live to steal another day.
I am sure going to give the "airsoft" role-play a try, I can only learn from that. ALOT.
For those like me who are prepared to be injured or killed to protect my family, one last thought:
I have long ago learned a valuable tip when it comes to calling for help. Because most home owners here are connected to an armed response service, I always tell them to lock all the doors inside their homes whenever they leave home. Should an alarm be triggered, the BG will have to break down every door in the house in order to steal something.
This allows the armed reaction more time to be effective.
Now, adopt this to home intruder scenario and not only will you hinder his movement in your house but you might just narrow his opportunity to ambush you.
I'll be back to report on my role-play outcome. Jus hope the poor bastard I ask to help me has medical 'cause I don't think my staffy will undersand this role-play thing too well... ;-)
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