Need 44 mag using h110 advice

[profman]

could i get some advice? developing a hunting load.

shooting thompson contender 14 inch barrel using blue dot 16.2 gr in remington 44 mag case, 240 gr winchester jhp and winchester large pistol primer. i finish the load with lee factory crimp die. this shoots well in the contender, but not really happy with the accuracy.

got some h110 and started with 22 grains and other components are the same. the group was mediocre, but the cases were sticky coming out of the barrel. no other sign of pressure. when shooting with 22.5 gr h110, the cases were definitely sticking in the barrel with no other signs of pressure. i stopped and did not shoot the test loads with 23 gr h110.

i loaded another five cases using 21 gr h110 and the cases did NOT stick. but the group at 25 yards was about 4 inches. are the sticky cases showing real pressure signs using the h110? i am below the published max load of 24 grains h110, so i am stymied what to do next to find an accurate load using h110 in my barrel?

should i continue testing with the 23 grain and higher until i reach the published max of 24 grains?

should i cut back on the crimp (Lee FCD) so the bullet starts moving earlier in the pressure cycle?

thanks in advance.

 

[FROGO207]

You can run into trouble with H110 going to hi or low. I have found it rather fussy to work with. Might try H4227, unique or 800X in that order or some other like powder. I use Bluedot with my 10" barrel super blackhawk and find it quite accurate with 240 GR lead bullets. My brothers carbine likes 16.1 GR Accurate #7 with 240 GR Zero bullets.

 

[bluetopper]

Try 2400 or AA4100.

 

[NCsmitty]

Welcome to THR, profman.

I'm not sure why your pressures appear to be elevated at the lower charges except possibly the chamber throat is short and the jump to the lands is causing the problem.
You're probably crimping in the cannelure, so just make sure that your not engraving the bullet into the lands.
The powder situation with H110 is a bit curious really.
Perhaps if you try lil'gun, it may be more forgiving, and some folks have good luck with the heavier bullets when using it.

www.hodgdon.com



NCsmitty

 

[Randy1911]

I give another vote for 2400. I don't like H110. It is so fine a powder that it leaks out of my powder measure and make a mess. I also have trouble with Unique not metering well. I loaded up some 44 mag test loads tonight and these were my observations. Good luck with what ever you deciede to use.

 

[Hutch]

Full-rip H110 loads in my 10" Contender shoot just fine. Can you think of any differences in the batches you reported on?

Edited to add: 21g may be too low for complete ignition. You might also try a CCI LPM primer. Winchester LP primers are rated for "Standard or Magnum" loads, but I'd want the hottest cap I can get, which is not likely to be Winchester.

 

[Ben Shepherd]

How's your neck tension? You should be able to litterally see the bullet in the case.

I also suggest going to a dedicated "magnum" primer as well.

 

[Walkalong]

Try AA #9 or N110. Ditch the FCD and use a regular crimp die.

 

[Steve C]

got some h110 and started with 22 grains and other components are the same.

When you are not getting good results go back to the data and see where you are off. Hodgdon lists the 240gr 44mag load with a start level at 23.0grs and a maximum at 24.0grs. This range is the same as listed in Speer #13 and other sources.

H110 is a volume sensitive powder and it loads should follow the published data or you can have problems. Hodgdon says not to reduce H110 below 3% to start with to avoid squibs and erratic pressure. You are well below these guidelines.

I'd suggest that you increase your load to a minimum of 23grs, I think your problems will clear up.

 

[Clark]

Steve C wrote:

When you are not getting good results go back to the data and see where you are off. Hodgdon lists the 240gr 44mag load with a start level at 23.0grs and a maximum at 24.0grs. This range is the same as listed in Speer #13 and other sources.

If you go back to "Speer 8" you will see;
A) 44 special 240 gr JSP, 16 gr H110 start, 18 gr H110 max.
B) 44 mag 240 gr JSP, 21 gr H110 start, 23 gr H110 max.

My experiments show that H110 is fussy about charge if not given a firm roll crimp. But with a good roll crimp, I can reduce to very low loads.

 

[Slamfire]

I conducted a bunch of W296/H110 testing in my Marlin rifle. After testing I came to the conclusion that W296 and H110 were the same thing. Incidentally, this month's Handloader confirms this.

I started at 24.0 grains and worked up to 24.5 grains.

Maybe you should have started at 23.0 and worked up to 24.0

H110 shoots well, but the manufacturer does not recommend loads below the starting level.

S&W M629-4 5" Barrel

240JHP R-P 24.0 grs H110 Midway cases WLP
9-Oct-05 T = 66 °F
Ave Vel =1228
Std Dev =21.47
ES =70.16
Low =1268
High =1197
N=22

M1894 Marlin Ballard Barrel



240 Nosler JHP 24.0 grs W296 WLP Fed cases
23-Mar-05 T = 65° F

Ave Vel =1725
Std Dev =7
ES =21
Low =1715
High =1736
N =5


240 Nosler JHP 24.5 grs W296 WLP Fed cases
23-Mar-05T = 65° F
Ave Vel =1752
Std Dev =12
ES =28
Low =1735
High =1763
N =5


240 Nosler JHP 24.0 grs H110 WLP Midway cases
23-Mar-05 T = 65° F

Ave Vel =1710
Std Dev =3
ES =9
Low =1705
High =1714
N =5



240 Nosler JHP 24.5 grs H110 WLP Midway cases
23-Mar-05 T = 65° F

Ave Vel =1745
Std Dev =12
ES =45
Low =1723
High =1768
N =10


240 Rem JHP 24.0 grs H110 WLP Midway cases
23-Mar-05 T = 65° F

Ave Vel =1719
Std Dev =10
ES =29
Low =1705
High =1734
N =10

 

[Ben Shepherd]

My experiments show that H110 is fussy about charge if not given a firm roll crimp. But with a good roll crimp, I can reduce to very low loads.

You've blown up a lot more firearms than myself in the pursiut of knowledge, so I'm curious- IME neck tension is the more critical component in this case. Firm/heavy crimp is needed, but I've found a good crimp is useless without adequate neck tension. Thoughts?

SlamFire1- NICE numbers out of that Marlin. Those low ES numbers are impressive. What are the groups like?

 

[Clark]

delete function?

 

[Clark]

You can only get ~ .002" of neck tension.
You can make the brass allot smaller, but ~.002" is the elastic limit, the rest is plastic deformation.
As the brass work hardens, the elastic limit gets larger.
You can measure this.
It is the difference between the die inside diameter and the outside diameter of the brass after being sized.
This is very easy to measure in the straight wall 44 mag coming out of a Carbide die.

To get a feel for how much more a roll crimp has an effect on starting pressure than neck tension, pull some bullets.
The ones with neck tension come out 10 times easier than the ones with neck tension.
should be The bullet pull out of a case with full neck tension 10 time easier than the ones with full roll crimp into a canalure
This extra starting pressure gives the H110 higher primer pressure and a delay which translates to a chance to ignite.

 

[Walkalong]

The ones with neck tension come out 10 times easier than the ones with neck tension.

What did you mean to type?

 

[Slamfire]

SlamFire1- NICE numbers out of that Marlin. Those low ES numbers are impressive. What are the groups like?

You won't want to read this, but I just looked at the targets.

I have a 2.5 inch five shot group at 100 yards, I have a 4 inch seven shot group. There are a couple that are much bigger. This rifle will hold the black and not much more.

I did some work on the rifle, don't remember if it was before or after the chronograph session. I think it was before.

Even with a Ballard barrel, it is not a tack driver.

 

[profman]

to clarify some questions, all my cases are loaded using lee turret press and the same die setting was used for all loads. the only difference was the powder. the bullet seats to the same overall length and does not hit the lands.

based on all my reading, i have always used a heavy crimp on the winchester cannelure.

for both blue dot and h110 loads, including 21 gr of h110, there was no unburned powder. at 22 gr of h110, the recoil was greater than 16.2 of blue dot.

note that i have been loading both at the top and bottom ends of blue dot trying to find an accurate load. suggested loads for accurate blue dot would be appreciated.

steve c - do i understand your recommendation that you think my pressure problem will go away at a higher powder load keeping all other conditions including heavy crimping the same? may i ask your reasoning?

i called hodgdon and the person i spoke to recommended NOT using a heavy crimp and 21 grains of h110.

i am experimenting with h110 because of all the recommendations from high road forums discussing 44 magnum that i had previously read. most of the time, the only knock that i read was to stay with full loads to be effective. i would like to be able to use h110 or else i have a powder that will just sit on my shelf.

 

[Ben Shepherd]

What brand of brass?

 

[profman]

What brand of brass?

remington brass

 

[Ben Shepherd]

Thought so. I've found it to be horrible brass in straight wall pistol calibers. Finally gave up on it and threw literally buckets of it in the scrap pile.

I've found it won't hold neck tension or crimp worth a darn at all. And I've had unexplained keyholing with it as well.

If everything else is lining up right and by the book with your handloads(sounds like it is), get a hold of some new cases from(in order of preference) Starline, Federal, or Winchester. Just about bet you a paycheck your results improve.

 

[Steve C]

steve c - do i understand your recommendation that you think my pressure problem will go away at a higher powder load keeping all other conditions including heavy crimping the same? may i ask your reasoning?

Basically that was what I'm saying. H110 and its brother W296 are both volume sensitive and need a high load density to burn properly, that is why the range from max to min on the recommended loads is generally very small. I've used H110 and W296 in both the .357 mag and .41 mag (even with Remington cases) and it works very well as long as you keep within the recommended 3% of maximum. While some people have downloaded it a little more and have not experienced problems I've talked to several reloaders that didn't read the directions very closely that wondered why they where getting squibs or poor accuracy with H110 and when quized about their loads they all loaded it lighter than recommended.

I would question if your perception of the cases being sticky is a sign of over pressure since you say there isn't any of the other signs like overly flattened, cratered or pierced primers.

 

[Clark]

The other problem is that a roll crimp is needed in hard kicking revolver to keep the bullets from pulling out and jamming the revolver.

With an S&W 25-2 in 45acp with long seated hot loads, the Lee factory crimp cannot hang on to a 300 gr cast bullet, and the revolver must be fired single shot.

 

[profman]

clark - i am using a single shot pistol. the only reason i use FCD is because of literature that recommends a heavy crimp to ensure full powder burn. i believe that is why the hodgdon guy recommended LESS crimp to reduce the pressure spike.

steve c - without any other changes other than the powder, and the case progressively sticking harder in the barrel as powder increases, (i have fired almost all manufacturer's 44 mag full loads without any case extraction issues), what other explanation besides pressure would explain the hard case extraction?

ben shepard - i will try other case manufacturers. however, i have other straight wall pistol cases from remington in other calibers that work very well indeed with full loads.

 

[GooseGestapo]

You just explained the problem.

You're using a LEE FACTORY CRIMP DIE in .44mag.

Don't get me wrong, I really like the Lee factory crimp dies for RIFLE CARTRIDGES..... BUT NOT HANDGUN CARTRIDGES.......

The sizer ring on the factory crimp die sizes down the fattest part of the load, to easily size in ANY chamber. In effect what you're doing is sizing the bullet down within the loaded cartridge and loosening the crimp that may have been previously installed. I think Lee did a huge disservice to REVOLVER cartridge loades by producing this die without a HUGE caveat that it not be used except where it is specifically needed.

Skip the Lee factory crimp die, and simply load and crimp with the Lee seater die.


What you're seeing with the H110 load is that the bullet and case are WAY undersized, and your're getting some strange interaction between the bullet, bore, and throat upon combustion. You could possibly be setting yourself for a generated bore obstruction condition as the bullet/case is not generating sufficient bullet pull, and could cause a "double-ignition", or a bore-obstruction situation. This is the so-called "detonation" scenario.

With the BlueDot accuracy situation, you're damaging the bullet ruining the loaded bullet by using the Lee FCD by sizing it down within the loaded cartridge. Your're also lossening the neck tension by squeezing down the brass over the bullet destroying most of the neck tension.... It's like resizing your loaded ammo in the sizer die... after its already loaded......just to eliminate the "buldge" which results from seating the previously "properly sized bullet".

Quit using the Lee FCD on the .44mag, and you'll see your accuracy improve drammatically........

These dies have their place with shooters using the 9mm in "speed matches" race guns that may have been previously fired in an oversized chamber that might result in a failure to fully lock closed. But, the 9mm is a "tapered" case and the sizer ring in the Lee FCD dosen't affect the bullet, just the rear portion of the case that might have been "swollen" oversized in a loose chamber.

Rifle FCD's are totally different and use a collet action to function to apply a crimp...... Similar name but a totally different critter.......

I do, however, use a Lee FCD for my 9mm loading, but it's a custom die and used to "post" size the base of 9mm cases as it was intended to do........

 

[Ben Shepherd]

The BEST die hands down for crimping straightwall revolver cartridges?

The Redding "Profile Crimp" die. It's the only one I use in 357, 41, and 44 mag, as well as 45 Colt.