Need a recommendation. (SG and ammo)

[Teufelhunden]

I'll precede the rest of my post with the warning that I'm humble enough to realize that my pistol and rifle experiences do not a shotgunner make. Excuse the newbie questions...

Looking to purchase a SG primarily for home defense. It seems that the Mossberg 500/590, the Remington 870, and the Winchester 1300 are recommended evenly around the web, so I will refine my request for a recommendation by asking that you apply the folllowing criteria:

- must be rifled for slugs
- must have sighting system more advanced than a single bead up front
- forearm unlocking button must be somewhere quickly accessible

If the above mentioned weapons can all be purchased in models that have the above features, then I suppose it will be settled by how they feel...

I know that base model cylinder bore Mossberg 500's go for around $250--how much can I expect a rifled one with decent sights to run?

Also, it seems that the most common choice for ammo is 00 Buck, which unless I'm mistaken is 9 .32cal pellets in a 2 and 3/4inch shell. I'm wondering why they are so popular since in a shooting for self defense, you'll be within 20 yards, more likely within 10. Would #4 shot (16 .25cal pellets) work as well with less recoil (More holes = better)? I've heard 00buck referred to as a 'high-brass' shell, indicating a more powerful load that needs to be contained by the brass; at what point do shotgun shells go to 'low-brass' configuration? Are there 'low-brass', lesser recoiling loads made with 00buck?

I know there are a lot of questions here, but I've no doubt the collective wisdom of the TFL/THR constituancy will find them to be no challenge.

-Teuf

 

[HSMITH]

You either shoot slugs extremely accurately with a rifled barrel and buckshot terribly, or you shoot slugs pretty darn good and can use buckshot effectively as well with a smooth bore. You need to pick one.

Choice of shotshell within household distances is not very important, they ALL work well. FWIW, in the house I use #4 buckshot.

 

[3 gun]

All 3 of the makes you list would make fine choices. The rifled barrel is a poor choice for a HD gun. They work great with sabot slugs but are terrible with any shot load that uses a wad. The wad grips and spins in the rifling causing an open pattern that is useless past 21 feet. A shot loading without a wad will work better but the rifling still has the effect of opening the pattern. It is a very dramatic effect. Borrow a gun from someone and give it a try. Ghost rings and rifle sight are also less effective on a HD gun. Unless you are looking to use the gun outdoors at ranges over 20 yards I doubt that you'd find them of much use. As for ammo, I've found the Federal Personal Defense load PD12-2 patterns very well out of a Mossberg 500 with an 18 1/4" cyl bore at indoor (10yds and less) ranges and has very low recoil. The low/high brass relationship to power isn't as valid as it use to be. Even this reduced recoil load has high brass. The only use of low brass I know of anymore is for target loadings and this PD load feels softer than the target load I use most often. The Federal 00 Tactical load H132-00 also groups well (20yds or so) out of my gun with only a slight increase in felt recoil. Slugs group around 4" at 25yds using only a front bead. Shots at that range or longer could be hard to call self defense.

I'd suggest you re evaluate some of your criteria before you buy. The rifled barrel being highest on that list.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Like the guys said, a rifled barrel on a shotgun is good with some slugs and horrible with any other load. A smoothbore barrel with or without choke tubes is a much better choice for HD.

The three pumps you mention plus the Ithaca 37 constitute the Big Four of pumps.All are available from the factories with open sights, some with peep or Ghost Rings.

All of the Big Four have easily accessed slide releases, tho the locations vary.

As for ammo, there's little ammo that would not be effective for HD. The huge amount of energy dumped by any shotgun load in a target makes pellets size moot, at least at typical HD ranges.

For your education, I suggest you measure the longest possible shot opportunity in your home, add a yard for GPs, and pattern at that range.

00 is very effective up to 50 yards, but it may overpenetrate at close range and injure a non target individual. #4 buck was the FBI duty load for just this reason, and may still be.

I've seen some forensic photos of shotgun wounds at cross room ranges. #8 shot seems to have the same effect as 000.

The old Fed database showed 99% plus one shot stops with shotguns. Gauge, choke and load were not differentiated.

For less than $300,maybe $200, you should be able to get a police turnin 870 that'll require little to make it an excellent HD tool. Used examples of the others are also around.All will last longer than we will, given PM and TLC....

 

[El Tejon]

Teuf, the only thing I have to add is to stress the importance of taking whichever weapon you choose (I'd go 870, but YMMV) and taking it to the pattern board with the load you choose. Patterns are like personalities, each one is slightly different even though the same model with consecutive serial numbers.

For example, I have one Wilson/ST 870 that loves Remington RR #00, however, its brother despises that load, and prefers Fed RR #4--consecutive serial numbers. Go figure.

The load will depend on your residence. Do you live where Hayzeus left his zapatos or do you live in a townhouse downtown? Things to consider.

As well, "shoot" your house. Shoot the materials contained in your house to check your backstop at different ranges. You will be surprised. Check backstops for HD situations. Remember, you may have to move with the weapon, what impact will that have on your backstop?

After you buy your shotgun, buy another. Get as much instruction as you can. Nothing wrong with shooting cow pasture skeet or even reg skeet with your HD weapon.

Here's to never using it,
Kirk

 

[Teufelhunden]

Many thanks for the answers. Re. the rifled barrel, I had been under the impression that one needed to have a rifled barrel to put slugs downrange at all, that such is not the case will indeed remove that criterion from the list.

3 gun: YOur 4" slug pattern at 25yards with only a front bead, is this something to be expected from an average shooter, or is this an advanced skill? With all of my longarm experience thus far being with rifles, it feels strange not to have a 2-part sight picture...

I came up with a another question too: A SG chambered for a 3.5inch shell will also feed 3 and 2 3/4 in shells (at least in a pump gun) correct? I'm not looking to use 3.5in Magnum loads on people, but it seems like if you can get your weapon to handle 3 kinds of ammo, it gives you more options if you're not in a position to get your preferred ammo...

THR comes though again

-Teuf

 

[El Tejon]

Teuf,

Bead sights: nothing wrong with them, but they, like everything, take getting used to. Fighting is not the skeet field.

Remember, inside your domicile, your shotgun becomes a rifle. Contrary to GSC/Hollywood "boulder of death" mythology, one will need to align the sights to achieve the desired impact.

I prefer ghostrings as in times of stress I tend to "look over" the weapon. Rings keep my concentration where it should be. Express rifle sights can be used as well. If you are more familiar with this sighting arrangement, use it.

3.5 shells: If you use your shotgun as a multi-use weapon, then any expanded capability will be of benefit. However, there are downsides to this in the form of extra weight, longer cycle length, etc. Darn that double edged sword.

Whichever weapon you choose (as you gain experience you will soon realize that the gun is of secondary importance) become intimate with it. Remember, handling is more important than the firing and mindset trumps both.

Have you decided upon a skul?

 

[3 gun]

You do have two points to align on a shotgun with a bead front sight. All the shotguns I've seen have a shallow grove that can be used for a rear sight. The 4" groups where done from a makeshift bench, slow fire. I'd do practice but don't feel I have any great skill. I did have ammo that grouped smaller but didn't hit my point of aim. For my use, POA is more important than the smallest group. The same gun with a rifled barrel will do 4" groups at 100 yards. I have 3 barrels for my Mossberg 500 so I use it for everything, just changing barrels as needed. You can get a rifle sighted smooth bore barrel for the 500 if you feel you must have better sights than the bead and grove set up.

 

[HSMITH]

What a lot of people don't seem to get is that EVERY shotgun has TWO sights minimum. The front sight is usually a bead, and the rear sight is YOUR EYE!!!!!! A middle bead can be used and often is for a third point of reference.

All you have to do to use a bead effectively with slugs or buckshot is learn to shoot your shotgun, you must learn to mount it consistently is all. If you have rifle sights/ghost rings and peedle poor mounting technique you are not going to be able to line them up well either. Slow deliberate fire is where sights are a big advantage, and only then beyond 60 yards or so for someone that can shoot a shotgun decently. Slow deliberate fire does not fit a fighting shotgun to me.

Practice your mounting, practice your mounting some more, shoot, practice your mounting and on and on and on. THAT is what is needed to shoot a sotgun effectively.

 

[blades67]

I suggest you avoid a 3.5" chambered shotgun that you'll be using for home defense with 2.75" shells.The long chamber with short shells can play havoc with the shot pattern. Oversimplfied, the 2.75" shot wad starts to open just slightly and then slams into the forcing cone. Your best bet is not going beyond a 3" chamber gun, unless you plan on using Turkey Magnum loads for home defense.

 

[Marshall]

Teufelhunden,

I am going to make you a promise with teeth behind it!

Buy any of the guns you named with only a bead front sight, load them up with quality slugs. Step off 30-50yds, put up a life size cardboard sillouette of a human. If you have had a decent amount of experience with shooting rifles with iron sights you will be able to aim at the upper torso of the sillouette, fire 5 shots and have 5 holes in it! If not, I'll give you my address and you can come whip my butt!

Don't be fakin me out either, I know that trick.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Re slugs and beads...

I'd taken Frankenstein to the range last fall to try it out with the bead. It's not seen many slugs since I've two excellent slug shooters already.

One 3 shot group had everything inside 3" edge to edge at 50 yards.It was not benchrested, I shot with elbows on table.

YMMV.I'm better than most with rifles.

H's comments here are Gospel. Practice makes good shotgunners, not hardware.