Need a Spotting Scope for 500 yards

[MR WICK]

I am shooting a CZ 527 223 with a Vortex Crossfire 2 scope.

However, I'm getting tired of walking out 300 yards to check my groupings and then walking back 300 yards to reset.

I know I need a spotting scope but have no idea which to go for. I don't want to break the bank.

Thanks all.

 

[Varminterror]

You’re not going to see 22cal holes in paper at 500. Even 300 may or may not cooperate on most days with most targets. Shoot-n-c type targets help, but past 300, it’s a crap shoot, even with very expensive glass.

Mirage destroys the order of light before it ever reaches your optics. No optic can fix that.

 

[MR WICK]

I'm shooting a 223

 

[BigBL87]

I'm shooting a 223

Which makes 22cal holes.

 

[BigBL87]

Something like this would probably be a safer bet at that range.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07MFR9MDR/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_fabc_WFCH7YE8KHRNEK3TA4TJ

 

[MR WICK]

Which makes 22cal holes.

Ahhh..
Makes sense.

What's a step up from 223?

 

[Chuck R.]

Depending on the conditions (read mirage), you could well have problems with any caliber. I even have difficulty seeing .458 holes when the mirage is really bad.

You're probably going to want to look into a target camera system, which could very well end up being cheaper than a quality spotting scope. Something like this:

https://www.shootingmadeeasy.com/target-camera-sight-in-edition/

or

https://www.amazon.com/SME-Bullseye-Long-Range-Camera/dp/B07MC56WZ3?th=1

 

[sparkyv]

I can attest to this:

You’re not going to see 22cal holes in paper at 500. Even 300 may or may not cooperate on most days with most targets. Shoot-n-c type targets help, but past 300, it’s a crap shoot, even with very expensive glass.

Mirage destroys the order of light before it ever reaches your optics. No optic can fix that.

 

[LoonWulf]

Ahhh..
Makes sense.

What's a step up from 223?

In diameter? Normally .243/6mm....

cant help with a spoting scope, i don't usually try to see bullet holes in paper outside of 200ish.

 

[MR WICK]

I'm using splatter targets.

My setup is a CZ 527, chambered in 223.

I have a Vortex Crossfire 2 Scope and Burris Bipod with a Bean Bag for stock support.

 

[Varminterror]

These threads always bug me, because they always go the same way.

@MR WICK - posts like yours with this same request come up on one forum or another every week. Honestly, I find it exceptionally unfortunate that SO MANY of the folks like yourself asking the question really don’t accept the answer they’re given. But you’ll put yourself on a path to disappointment if you, like so many others before you - myself included - ignore experienced advice and insist on chasing an objective of finding a cheap spotting scope which reliably allows visibility of bullet holes at 300-500yrds, with or without splatter targets (note: I referenced Shoot-n-c brand of “splatter targets” in my first response). These threads typically end up in the “lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it think” paradigm, unfortunately, and money gets wasted.

On low mirage days, even splatter targets are still tough at 300yrds, and humid days will make 300 futile. I’m not terribly convinced 500 is ever feasible. Recall - service rifle shooters use spotting scopes to see their POI’s at 600 yards, which are plugged with scoring discs as big around as your fist… those disks are used for a reason…

Here’s a thought as to why: A Vortex Viper 20-60x80mm spotting scope has a 15ft minimum FOV at 300yrds, zoomed in at 60x. A 22cal bullet tearing a 1/2” diameter splatter on a target is only 0.2% of the FOV. Comparatively, the 1/4MOA wide reticle line in your scope will cover .79” at 300yrds, meaning it’s ~50% wider than a splatter. It’s not easy to see anything only making up 1/500th of your field of view…

Visually, here are some shots through scopes, binos, and spotting scopes I have on hand:

This is cropped tighter than natural view, because the phone skope app uses full screen fill. Really friendly day, low mirage, only shooting 200yrds with a 22LR, producing splatters about as big as a 223 will produce on a splatter target. This is a 15x magnification optic with exceptional clarity ($2500 Swaro SLC’s), but artificially zoomed even tighter because of the lens cropping. You can see how small bullet splashes appear, even with the strong contrast against the white painted targets.


Alternatively, here are is a 10” gong at 325 yards viewed at 18x through a $300 riflescope - the targets are dirty, but the scope can’t resolve any of the splatter at that distance - the contrast isn’t clean enough in the high sun to discern the impact splashes from the paint.


Here’s a 400-450 yard target array viewed through a 20-60x85mm spotting scope with a $1500 street price. Mirage is gross, targets are ~9”x12” heads, bullet splatters are somewhere around 1-1.5” diameter… can’t resolve impacts on target worth a damn here.


THIS is why so many of us warn others to NOT buy a spotting scope with the expectation of seeing bullet holes at 300 and beyond. On the best of days, it ~kinda~ works at 0-200, 300ish. On most days, it really doesn’t work at 300 and beyond. And on almost any day, it doesn’t work at 500.

 

[MR WICK]

These threads always bug me, because they always go the same way.

@MR WICK - posts like yours with this same request come up on one forum or another every week. Honestly, I find it exceptionally unfortunate that SO MANY of the folks like yourself asking the question really don’t accept the answer they’re given. But you’ll put yourself on a path to disappointment if you, like so many others before you - myself included - ignore experienced advice and insist on chasing an objective of finding a cheap spotting scope which reliably allows visibility of bullet holes at 300-500yrds, with or without splatter targets (note: I referenced Shoot-n-c brand of “splatter targets” in my first response). These threads typically end up in the “lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it think” paradigm, unfortunately, and money gets wasted.

On low mirage days, even splatter targets are still tough at 300yrds, and humid days will make 300 futile. I’m not terribly convinced 500 is ever feasible. Recall - service rifle shooters use spotting scopes to see their POI’s at 600 yards, which are plugged with scoring discs as big around as your fist… those disks are used for a reason…

Here’s a thought as to why: A Vortex Viper 20-60x80mm spotting scope has a 15ft minimum FOV at 300yrds, zoomed in at 60x. A 22cal bullet tearing a 1/2” diameter splatter on a target is only 0.2% of the FOV. Comparatively, the 1/4MOA wide reticle line in your scope will cover .79” at 300yrds, meaning it’s ~50% wider than a splatter. It’s not easy to see anything only making up 1/500th of your field of view…

Visually, here are some shots through scopes, binos, and spotting scopes I have on hand:

This is cropped tighter than natural view, because the phone skope app uses full screen fill. Really friendly day, low mirage, only shooting 200yrds with a 22LR, producing splatters about as big as a 223 will produce on a splatter target. This is a 15x magnification optic with exceptional clarity ($2500 Swaro SLC’s), but artificially zoomed even tighter because of the lens cropping. You can see how small bullet splashes appear, even with the strong contrast against the white painted targets.
View attachment 1051786

Alternatively, here are is a 10” gong at 325 yards viewed at 18x through a $300 riflescope - the targets are dirty, but the scope can’t resolve any of the splatter at that distance - the contrast isn’t clean enough in the high sun to discern the impact splashes from the paint.
View attachment 1051800

Here’s a 400-450 yard target array viewed through a 20-60x85mm spotting scope with a $1500 street price. Mirage is gross, targets are ~9”x12” heads, bullet splatters are somewhere around 1-1.5” diameter… can’t resolve impacts on target worth a damn here.
View attachment 1051804

THIS is why so many of us warn others to NOT buy a spotting scope with the expectation of seeing bullet holes at 300 and beyond. On the best of days, it ~kinda~ works at 0-200, 300ish. On most days, it really doesn’t work at 300 and beyond. And on almost any day, it doesn’t work at 500.

That was extremely helpful. The question becomes if you are shooting 500 to 1,000 yards no spotting scope with a 223 round is going to give me what I'm looking for. Not even the most advanced scopes.

That sucks because the alternative is walking 500 yards out and 500 yards back. Good exercise I suppose.

Again. Thank you.

 

[Laphroaig]

Electronic targets are coming down in price. Probably cheaper than high quality glass and a good scope stand.

https://www.silvermountaintargets.com/

You will see your impacts and can save the groups etc.

ETA: I've shot on Silver Mountain targets and they are pretty slick. You even get chrono speeds at the target face.

 

[BigBL87]

I'd really consider the target camera idea, actually cheaper than alot of the better spotting scopes out there.

 

[Varminterror]

How do we keep track at 500-1000? Spotters and steel targets. Reactive targets tell you where they were hit, high, low, left, right… splash in the dirt tells you if it was a miss. Flashers on targets help too - I’ll often put a big check target downrange with smaller targets which challenge my raw precision at that distance, so if I can hit the big target and see how it swings, then I’ll adjust to center up, then see if the group is tight enough to hold onto the little targets too. Bullet wake/trace can show impacts if your spotters are skilled at watching it. Or you have guys working the butts downrange and plugging spotters into your bullet holes.

OR you have electronic targets or target cameras.

Here’s an example of one set up I use - a hit on any of these 3 will trigger the flasher (just below the reticle at 5.5 mils right), big 24” round gong with two 12x20” 66% IPSC’s at 800 yards because I was shooting 2 different rifles to prep for a match. Usually I have a 10” round instead of the second IPSC, or some days I’ll hang a 10” and a 6” when I really want to push it. This is a ~$1200 3.5-21x optic near its top end, you can see the mirage distortion… ain’t seeing those bullet strikes through that…

 

[LiveLife]

I'm getting tired of walking out 300 yards to check my groupings and then walking back 300 yards to reset ... I don't want to break the bank.

I'd really consider the target camera idea, actually cheaper than alot of the better spotting scopes out there.

+1.

How about this 400 yard target cam for $177? - https://www.amazon.com/Caldwell-Bal...NRQN/ref=dp_prsubs_3?pd_rd_i=B07KT8NRQN&psc=1

1 mile (1760 yards) version for $369 - https://www.amazon.com/Caldwell-Bal...YN1Y/ref=dp_prsubs_2?pd_rd_i=B01B7OYN1Y&psc=1

• Works at distances up to 400 yards
• Live stream HD video
• Breaks down into compact storage case for easy transport
• Record video, calculate group size, save pictures, and more
• Fully contained waterproof housing
• Compatible with iPhone, Android, and most tablets
• Rechargeable lithium-ion battery

 

[FL-NC]

Whatever spotting scope you end up with, smaller holes can be a challenge to find at range. To address this, I use the shoot + see targets or similar. To save $, I cut them down to a manageable size that I can hit given the distance, the rifle and caliber in play, and how well I can shoot it. I shoot most of my paper at 100 yards (zeroing) for longer distances I use steel.

 

[JFrank]

Rather then spend hundreds of bucks on a spotter we use a clay bird on the dirt backstop for sighting in or just messing around, but for load development we color the bullet ogive s with a sharpie to separate each charge weight or each seating depth or bushing/neck tension testing.
I drive to the 500 or 1k target just to set up then return for results.( I use freezer paper with the non waxed side towards the shooter for best results)

 

[Jim Watson]

Listen to Varminterror.
A friend and I spent all one summer trying to resolve bullet holes up through .45-70 at typical target ranges.
We tried everything we could think of; a light colored backer leaned to catch sunlight and show neon pink through the holes was sometimes usable to 300 meters with his 82mm Kowa. Sometimes it wasn't if it wasn't in bright sun and low mirage conditions.
We ended up with gongs at 200 to 500 meters, plus one at 600 yards, most of our shooting then was BPCR Metallic Silhouette anyhow.
Bang... Clang.
Take the pickup truck across the pasture to look at groups and paint .

 

[jmorris]

However, I'm getting tired of walking out 300 yards to check my groupings and then walking back 300 yards to reset.

What exactly are you doing/want?

At some point you have a target that needs to be replaced, can you check the groups at that point or are you wanting to see each impact, in order, between shots?

This is a look through one of mine at 300 yards. You can tell for sure what plate was struck and with fresh pain (yeah, you have to go to the target to cover previous impacts) and the right conditions, shot by shot impacts can be seen.


Even in great conditions a fly on the paper is easy to confuse with a bullet hole, at least until it moves.

If you just want to minimize your movement while testing a bunch of different loads, firearms. I made this modular target stand, replace those short sticks with 8ft ones and staple a 4x8 sheet of chloroplast on it and you can shoot for hours at all the different targets without having to go down there. If you have a bunch to test you just need to right down what load goes with what target.



Those tiny white dots to the left of the rectangle at the furthest distance are the steel targets in the above video, the rectangle is the 4x8 ft target stand. Also nice to have targets at closer ranges if you have to zero.



This is another device I built that is more compact but more complicated to build, that allows me to shoot a many groups at many targets without having to leave the bench.



A video camera that can TX the image back works too. The image on that phone is being sent by a drone that can no longer fly, I set on the ground in front of the target.



The device in the center is a 9v battery powered audio/video TX, I have for model rocketry and aircraft. It works well and has a very long range. Problem is with the resolution they have you either need to change the target or have a way to scroll them like above. You can’t move from one target to another.



Steel is probably best at instant notification of hit or miss, you can tell even with your eyes closed.



A downside is to be able to quantify accuracy, you need different size targets so you know what ones you can hit 100% and what ones are too small to get consistent hits.

If you have to take with you, setup and take home the targets, that could be a lot of work. I leave these setup at my house, only move them if we use them in a match.



We can shoot all day without going down to the target area. No one going down range was actually the motivation for building the auto reset targets to begin with.

 

[d2wing]

This thread has saved me from buying yet another spotting scope.Thanks.

 

[brasscollector]

+1.

How about this 400 yard target cam for $177? - https://www.amazon.com/Caldwell-Bal...NRQN/ref=dp_prsubs_3?pd_rd_i=B07KT8NRQN&psc=1

1 mile (1760 yards) version for $369 - https://www.amazon.com/Caldwell-Bal...YN1Y/ref=dp_prsubs_2?pd_rd_i=B01B7OYN1Y&psc=1

• Works at distances up to 400 yards
• Live stream HD video
• Breaks down into compact storage case for easy transport
• Record video, calculate group size, save pictures, and more
• Fully contained waterproof housing
• Compatible with iPhone, Android, and most tablets
• Rechargeable lithium-ion battery

Wow, last time I looked into target cams they were twice that price.

 

[LiveLife]

How about this 400 yard target cam for $177?

Wow, last time I looked into target cams they were twice that price.

Now down to $147 - https://www.amazon.com/Caldwell-Bal...NRQN/ref=dp_prsubs_3?pd_rd_i=B07KT8NRQN&psc=1

 

[HJ857]

A mountain bike makes going downrange a whole lot easier.

I also completely agree with using steel targets. A five inch gong on a cheap shepherd's hook is a great, cheap target. Get four or five of them so you can set up a string of them. As you get better they can be used up to 500 meters for a challenging target that gives you immediate feedback, or buy larger diameter gongs. Steel targets are easily found on Amazon and hooks are at any garden center, get the shortest and lightest ones available, they don't need to be overbuilt.

In dry or hard soil a shepherd's hook can be nearly impossible to get into the ground, so a large auger bit in a cordless drill helps hugely. Hammering a hook will break it so that's not a good solution.

 

[rdnktrkr]

We started using old tires for our steel, install 2 I bolts to hang the steel and we use rebar to hold the tire up, all this does is allow you to know is you can shoot minute of gong at that distance, I guess you can have 12", 6" and a 3" at 300yrds and then would know if your shooting 4moa, 2moa or 1moa. I've seen steel that had a smaller one in the center that would allow this with fewer targets.
We usually sight our rifles in at 100 and twice a year we go to the CMP Talladega to use electronic targets out to 600yrds.
We use the targets that have 5 targets on 1 sheet at 100yrds for load workup and they are easy to see with a cheap spotter scope.