Need advice and info from the gurus, loving wife has me completelyat a loss....

[Detritus]

howdy all,

this past week my wife adn i went to our local FFL to shop for a new SG (the first one since the "sell everything non-vital to pay med bills" incident of Nov '02), and my wife fell in love with a light well balanced, Khan "Artemis" O/U in 28ga that the shop had on hand. so now the following two courses of action appear to be open to me.....

Find a 12ga Artemis for her to handle and see if the balance is similar (ie close enough that a little light tweaking would make it "right"), Due to my "educated working class southerner" (aka High Tech Redneck) bias this was my first reaction and choice, due to the availability in 12ga of loads such as the Win AA "featherlite" (need for this wioll be explained shortly)

OR

Buy HER the 28ga (a critter i know nothing about other than it's between 20 and 410) and myself an 870.

Known, and probably important, additional conditions

My wife had shoulder surgery aproximately a year ago, the doctor has ok'ed her for use of any firearm SHE feels comfortable with as long as proper care is taken (good pad on the gun, a pad on her shoulder etc), and in addition has given her a set of exercises to do that utilize the guns as tools to build her strength and range of motion further.
THIS is part of the reason i was thinking a 12 loaded with the Win Featherlites (that and i just don't see the reason to go to higher recoil shells as of yet, and I'M not readjusted to field loads yet )

and now she wants to learn to shoot "the locally available clay games" (skeet, 5-stand and trap)

I feel that the two most important factors in making my decision should me weight and balance of the gun...... (is this right or wrong)

My wife (again someone who till she met me had only picked up a SG while on guard duty in the army, there's a story or two there) upon being handed the 28ga Artemis in question, said the following words, "Hey this thing feels RIGHT, almost like an extension of ME!!! i LIKE this one".
as i understand things these are words that do NOT come often to a shotgun newbie being handed a gun "out of the blue" and these words came from her with absolutely NO knowlege of anything other than how the gun felt in her hands.

She says that the 20ga of the same model that we found at the gunshow today felt noticably heavier and (i guess the term would be) "barrel heavy" (noticable amount of weight forward of her hands)

Again i know nothing of how a standard 28ga loading compares to such loads as the 11 featherlite and similar, for recoil etc. all i know is that the shells cost more and that logicly the pattern from a 29 is smaller than that of a 12 thus propably making it slightly more difficult to hit a clay, but for a complete neophyte starting from scratch this may not matter much.

BTW the 28ga Khan is priced at $440, and i can probably get the price down to $400 or less. and my wife has agreed that to pay half the cost of the O/U so that MY expenditure on a first shotgun for her (a late mother's day gift) will be the same as if i'd gone with my original idea



So if you kind folks could give me a little helping hand, from advice, to a comparison of light 12ga loads to standard (ie commonly available) 28ga loads etc, it would be greatly appreciated. it isn't often that this lovely lady has me at a complete loss for how to proceed (least not where guns are concerned) but this one has me tied in knots,as i want to do the best i can for her, and NOT over look something or mis-prioritize and send her off to a bad start in the shotgun sports.

thank you for your time and your paitence with my long windedness, any and all input is apreciated.

 

[Leadbutt]

The 28 ga is a great little shotgun, its smaller than the 20ga and the loads I have seen in my area or most bird and skeet type, I wouldn't go with the 12 just yet

 

[only1asterisk]

Detritus,

A correction and a suggestion.

The pattern of 28ga. will not be smaller than a 12ga. of equal choke, it will be less dense. Recoil from the standard 28ga is less than all but the lightest 12ga. The shells for 28ga cost more, much more, but are mostly of good quality as the 28 is primarly used for clays.

If she likes it, then it is the one for her. Logic doesn't enter into it.


David

 

[MrMurphy]

You could also add a Kick-Eeze recoil pad and a mercury recoil reducer..... with a 28ga or 20ga there would be very, VERY little recoil. The recoil reducer, in a 20ga would add some weight to the stock and make it less muzzle heavy.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Get her the 28 gauge. The Confidence Factor is a big plus.

The 28 doesn't handle non toxic loads well, it's not for long shots. It does perform wondrous well inside 30 yards.

 

[kudu]

The 28ga is a superb little gun that for some reason often outshoots the biger guns. Yes the shells are quite a bit more pricey, but if a gun feels 'right', it should be picked up and cherished. You are just lucky it's not some exhibition grade 28ga for 4 or 5 thousand dollars.

I have no experience with the Khans myself, but lots with a 28ga, I have 4 of them.

Is it worth the price of the shells to get your wife really interested in shooting clays? I bet it is.

 

[sm]

Wife - get a 28 ga.

Read or re-read Brister's book and the portion about 28 ga, choosing chokes and loads, pay attention to pattern, pattern density, including how pellets and pellet density perform on Moving targets NOBODY ever thinks about moving targets.

The 20 ga guns often have more felt recoil because of the "rule of 96's" [ weight of gun in relation to payload] Hence the reason 7/8 oz loads are more comfortable to shoot from a 12 ga.

Now...the 28 ga is a unique "bore to shot charge" combination. Simply put - It is better than it is "supposed to be". I has a 'short shot string" very important for moving targets .

A lot of folks went to 28 ga because of shoulder surgeries, detached retina's, back surgery...Doctors orders or quit shooting /hunting. Many went to a 1100, or 870. That little 870 Express was a big favorite. With a screw in choke system these folks could once again shoot a special league of TRAP...yes trap...it was more fun, put the challenge back into it, and many folks were attracted to "this old sport - renewed".

Of course we skeet shooters have known about this for a long time....but you know how trap folks are...

Sure the 28 ga is more expensive, it has better components - like hard shot. us skeet boys ain't stupid.

So you figure in a Mec single stage reloader to reload, not anything on TV anyway, beats the heck out of dusting and running a vaccum cleaner...Many women and kids really like to reload to reload the 28 ga hulls - seriously. So you pick up a pizza or BBQ on the way home...not a bad thing, if she is reloading and not cooking. you would rather have her do that than watch a dumb show on redecorating and getting ideas for new curtains - wouldn't you?

On O/U there are a bunch of good ones, try to find used...and for heavens sake do not let her pick up a high dollar 28 ga. It will cost you big time.

Ruger Red Labels, Citoris, Simple Berettas. and others are priced right, affordable , always work and parts /service are avialable if need.

There is a reason why the 28 ga is the best gun / best score a 4 gun skeet shooter will have. Too much proof in the scores on moving targets, even with the 5/8 oz payload, the scores are often higher than the 7/8 oz 20 ga.

There is probably a reason why I am not allowed to be around some wives, kids , GFs, Fiance's...always has something to do with gunstores and ranges...I have no idea what it could be...

One grandad finally forgave me...He "said "to get something for the grandaughter and put it on his tab. Used Citori, ( tweaked to fit) 2 cases of 28 ga shells, a Used MEC reloader, components to reload, shell belt, pouch, eyes and ears...

Now HE takes all the credit for the grandaughter's shooting and the bird hunting they do together..Not the way I remember it at all...

 

[WhoKnowsWho]

Even if you were to get a 12 ga, and use something light kicking like Aguila Mini Shells, the balance will still be different and if she truly likes the 28 ga, you will probably just have to get the 28 ga.

 

[mete]

For someone who has had shoulder surgery I would suggest an auto. In addition special recoil pad and the pad that you put in your jacket.The new Benelli has a gel filled pad that absorbs recoil well. ..I would also get a 20 Ga or even a 12 because ammo is easier to find and more effective at the range. I have asked about women shooting clays about 12 vs 20 and was told most use a 12 .Light target loads in 12 have very light recoil. Also make sure that the gun fits her well since poor fit accentuates recoil.

 

[hillbilly]

Dude.....

Your wife is giving you a request, a plea, an excuse to BUY ANOTHER GUN and you're asking us what you should do about it?

If you have that much confusion, then you do need professional help.



hillbilly

 

[Detritus]

and for heavens sake do not let her pick up a high dollar 28 ga. It will cost you big time.

well turns out that neither the Citori nor the Red label in 28 that she looked at Saturday balanced as well as that Khan..... not worried TOO much at this point.

Your wife is giving you a request, a plea, an excuse to BUY ANOTHER GUN and you're asking us what you should do about it?

to be precise i was asking if i should buy ONE gun, or TWO guns at teh same time....

truth be known i'll probably have both (the 28ga Khan and a 12ga 870) on layaway by tommorow just so they wind up in MY hands



thanks guys i needed the input and affirmation.

and additional info IS still appreciated.

 

[another okie]

Good lord, buy the 28 immediately and worry about shotgun # 2 later. Get her a shooting vest with a pad, too, and you'll be good to go.

 

[bbrown609]

The most important rule: Always make the wife happy! If you can afford it, go with the 28 gauge. Sounds like this is what she has her heart on, and if she is given something else, she may act like she is fine with it, but deep down, she won't be. Get her the 28 guage and let her get back into shooting. A year or two down the road, she may be ready to move back up to a 20 or 12 again. The 28 guages usually hold their value pretty well and could be traded in on something else, or kept in your collection. She may want the 28 guage because of confidence issues with her shoulder, and the fact that she knows this should be the lightest recoiling gun she can effectively shoot at the range. This is the same kind of issue that athletes coming off knee surgery face when trying to get back in the game. Until she gets her confidence back, the 28 may be the way to go.

 

[Detritus]

This is Angua, Detritus's much better half. He is not nearly as descriptive of the Khan as I was. We had gone to the store for him to show me yet another shotgun and wanted me to try it to see how it felt. Well with my shoulder surgery it is harder for me to get my right arm around and comfortably fit my hand to the trigger and the sg he laid in my arms was awkward, front heaby, and hard to reach the trigger. I guess my face gave me away when I handed it back because the guy behind the counter said, 'Shounder surgery? This is what you ought to try," and put the 28 ga Khan in my hands.

Have you ever had something that the very first time you touched it you just knew, this is it, this is right, like the first time I sat on a Harley low rider and well, ok, that's another story. Anyway, the balance was perfect, the reach was just where my hand was comfortable and the weight was almost non existant. I could drop my right hand and hold the sg to my shoulder with just my left hand. Then those words came out of my mouth that I have never utter in our married life, "I'll go halves on this one."

You would think that would have clued him in, but my dear old hubby is ever the detailed analyst (read anal retentive) and has to go study and get details and find out all the nit picky bits. So the shells cost more, hey I work, I can afford the shells.

So thank you to all for telling him to just shut up and get the Khan. How often do I say, Oh yeah, go out and get ANOTHER gun??? He is a sweety, he just needs a gently nudge.

Angua

 

[41mag]

All I have to add is that if you buy the Khan don't pay $400.
I don't remember the names but the black receivered guns were $299 & the fancy ones were $349 when I looked at them on sale last month.
All gauges.

 

[PJR]

Here's the problem as I see it.

You fell in love with the gun. It felt like an extension of you.

You have to buy it. If you don't and buy something else and are the slightest bit unhappy with it you will always wonder in the back of your mind whether you would have done better with the gun you wanted in the first place.

Now for the 28 gauge. I am seriously infatuationed with this gauge since I acquired a three barrel skeet set (20, 28, 410). Shooting it for a few months showed me that the only thing the 20 had over the 28 was recoil. I broke birds just as well with the 28. The .410 was another story.

So entranced was I with 28 that I held a firesale of several other guns (including the three barrel set) to finance the purchase of a 28 gauge sporting clays gun that is almost identical in configuration to my 12 gauge o/u. I shoot it as well as my 12 and feel a lot less tired after a round of sporting.

Paul

 

[sm]

This is Angua, Detritus's much better half.

WELCOME!!

1) Find a Harley Low Rider [ yes I undertstand "fit"]
2) Run over hubby. [this cures anal- retentive disorder]
3) Buy all the 28 ga shells you want with life insurance money to feed the Khan...to heck with reloading

J/K

PJR, I agree. The 28 ga is better than it is supposed to be. I have shot the 28 ga in 4 gun tourneys for all events , except the .410 event.

I could live with 12 ga for somethings, and the 28 ga for everything else.

I need to contact Mike Jordan at Winchester. I have a serious loading idea for the 28 ga. I don't have the ballistics knowledge on my own, but something has intrigued me for some 20+ years now. I even attempted this on my own once upon at time.

 

[pauli]

one of the most amusing things about male behavior is that once every few years, every single man out there needs as large a group of friends as possible to smack him in the back of the head and say "BUY HER THE ONE SHE PICKED OUT!"

(you will note the lack of any references to firearms in that sentence...)

 

[ysr_racer]

I shot a Beretta 20ga youth 391 with a kickeze pad.

That thing was so soft it had negitive recoil. Is that posible?

 

[Detritus]

FOR THE RECORD

The Khan (the 28ga O/U) along with an 870, is now sitting on layaway waiting for my next paycheck (or two, depending on how much the Government takes out of me...)


two more questions come to mind in the wake of today's proceedings....

1. anyone know if a 28ga RemChoke style wrench (the kind that has three or four fingers forming a circle that grip the inside of the tube) will work on the Khan tubes?? it comes with one of the T-shaped multi-stepped Universal wrenches but i think the other kind would be a better idea IF it would work..

2. on a single barreled SG, such as an 870 what is the best "all around" choke to have in the gun?? the used 870 i've had put back for me comes with a Modified in place and I do not know if that is the way they are shipped or if that's just teh one that the last owner was most willing to part with...

again thanks for the time AND the slaps to the back of the head

P.S. Hey SM!!! this is all YOUR fault btw...!!!! Should NEVER have told her to read that story you put up here onths back :banghead: lol more on that later, wife will be sending you a PM (look for one from "Delfine" )

 

[sm]

Modified is what the bbl is marked, pattern board will define what it really is.

Angua - you aint' getting off that easy! You are hereby promptly instructed to go to www.abebooks,com and order Bob Brister's Shotgunning: The Art And The Science , I'm dead serious and oh yeah...you get to buy it and read it first, share with hubby, but you are instructed to read it.

I get called a lot of names Art's Grammaw does not allow here. I am so used to being blamed for stuff, I feel wronged if not blamed often enough.
I am not allowed to take some folks shopping, I am not allowed to " pick something out", here is my CC #, or put it on my tab".

Never ask me if the person has told me what they want, have me make a suggestion, or give me a wish list. I'm gonna get somebody in trouble besides myself.

They still call me though...

I'm the guy they warn folks about. I don't always use the "proper" tact and language...I do have my opinions.

Gee, the wifey is gonna PM me - really. Hey - how many of you folks ever get a PM from a lady on this forum...a married one to boot!

This ought to be good, I wonder how much trouble I can myself into with this deal...I betcha I manage to NOT be the only one I get into trouble. Any takers?

 

[Detritus]

Modified is what the bbl is marked, pattern board will define what it really is.

just for info (in case it matters, cause i sure as the heck don't know if it does) it's a Rem-choke barrel with the Modified tube installed, or at least thats how the little measurement device the shop had (a brass mandrel with a stepped body, with each step coresponding to a increment of choke) seemed to read to me.

in fact a 12ga wrench and and quick browse (without buying) of what tubes are readily available without going to houston, is on the list of likely things for todays shopping.

i was just wondering, that IF the installed tube really IS a modified, if it would be better to leave it in place or swap it for another. and also which choke was usually installed in factory 870 Expresses.

last 870 with removable tubes that i had acess to was years ago and except for a short lived and disappointing experimentation by my father with a "Skeet" choke, i do not remeber what was used in that gun other than the fact that it WAS what it came with from the factory.


additionally and really showing my ignorance here, so that BOTH my wife and i know, how should we have HER gun set up at first?? i have no idea How khan shaipped the guns (ie what tubes are in which location) but there are an additional 3 or 4 tubes in their little individual plastic "holders" the box. and i at least would like to know if i should look into which ones are where....


maybe i should start a new thread now that the "what should i buy" head kicking is over with

thanks as always guys.

 

[sm]

Detritus

BTW your better half did in fact PM me. She is a great lady. She also sent some dirt on you so be nice to me or I will get you in real hot water.
[(j/k) she didn't really send dirt on you...she might now tho']

Rem 870 Express come with one Mod screw in choke ( it is written on the choke). All the newer guns I have shot have had the forcing cone already lengthened from factory and in all the new guns with these feature really pattern well, birdshot, buckshot and slugs.

Your wifey can explain all this - she has instructions to buy Brister's Book and read it first. She can share, but I was not going to let her get off this whole deal "that easy".

Angua, you did order the book -right?

Keep the factory choke, the whole point of screw in chokes is the ability to better obtain a pattern for a task. Skeet requires a more open choke (I used bascially no choke "cylinder bore") . Trap is best for most folks with a Modified, Sporting clays Improved cylinder...and so on. Like I said the darling wife will share the book. The pattern board will define what the choke actually throws. Pay particular attention to the section on "moving targets" and "shot strings". Explains why "folks miss with all them pellets".

I'm going to suggest setting up the wife's gun first. Besides the excitement of being able to shoot and all, she has a sincere physical need to consider , and needs the expertise of someone who is a shooter, and knows something about her surgeries. I bet a shooter who is a doctor is a member at the range. Snag 'em...especially if he has a wife or daughter that shoots. That dealie about how ladies are built.

The mental healing is going to be a result of the physical healing, it sucks to have physical limitations and messes with one's mind. By having her gun fit first , and fit correctly, she can practice mounting correctly the proper fundamentals with that unloaded gun. This will be like physical therapy, get her stamina up, and she will be a better shooter becasuse of doing this. I am serious.

I do not know if Carlsons has the aftermarket chokes for the Khan. I do know they have for the 870.

Tip: I like external knurled screw in chokes. I don't have to keep up with a stupid wrench. These also protect the muzzle in the event one dings the muzzle by accident.

I like simple.

You two have fun...share the book and the other stuff I suggested with hubby...be safe.

[ wipes hands- grinning big time - what else can I stir up today for someone ? ]

 

[Delfine]

The Khan is on lay-a-way, the book is on order and Bob, the guy who picked out the sg for me to begin with has given me a set of exercises to work on for my shoulder.

Turns out he and I both share a shoulder injury and subsequent arthritis. He aslo tells great war stories.

Thanks to all for your advice, virtual kick to the rear for reluctant hubby, and your care and concern. I will keep you posted on my progress.

Best to all,
Angua Delfine von Uberwald

 

[Spinner]

Just so SM ain't a lone voice in the wilderness, I will second the motion .... buy Bob Brister's book and read it (Shotgunning: The Art and The Science). It is an awesome book and his chapter called The case for the smaller gauges (or something like that I haven't got my copy to hand) will convince you that the 28 ga is indeed a potent weapon which is more than capable of dealing with moving targets (its all to do with shot stringing due to payload/bore ratio).

SM told me to buy Bob Bristers book and I kinda went "yeah, yeah", but he kept on about it so I thought I'd better find out what he was on about. Its an older book (but the imformation is still valid) and I couldn't find a copy locally, but found several copies both new and second hand on the internet. I bought a second hand copy and paid more for shipping than for the book itself.

The book arrived and I thought I'd better start reading it to see what all the fuss was about but I wasn't looking forward to it .... who wants to read a boring technical book right? Well, I quickly found out that not only was it easy to read, there were tons of pictures to help explain things and it was really interesting as well. I've read the book from cover to cover and re-read various sections of the book again. Its an extremely valuable source of information and provides not only background info but incredibly detailed and thoughtful analysis of quite complex concepts ..... shotgun ballistics and shot stringing are not easy issues to objectively test and report .... especially in an interesting and readable way.

SM made me promise that I'd write a book report after I read the book (which I haven't done yet) ..... I'll get around to it soon.

Reading the book will answer a whole swag of questions that lots of people ask on these forums ..... and its not just newbie stuff either. There are many, many gems between the covers of that book. I would highly recommend buying it and reading it .... you'll be a much more knowledgable shotgunner if you do.

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