CountGlockulla
Member
I vote Brown out of those choices
Need advice for .45ACP 1911 Purchase
- Thread starter JazzDoc
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smalls
Member
No one ever said your Kimber was crappy. What I said was that the Brown is superior.
Think of it this way: would you rather drive a Chevy, a Ford, or a Porche?
The Chevy and the Ford are both nice cars, and will get you from point A to B just fine, but there's just something about showing up to work in a Porche you can't beat.
Kyle M.
Member
I've owned the gold cup and a kimber gold match ii. IMO the kimber was a much better gun it was fitted and finished alot nicer than my gold cup and was quite a bit more accurate. While the brown is superior to both I have shot them and unless your going to shoot it from a ransom rest for groups you won't be able to tell a difference. If I were you I would buy the gold match II and spend the rest on ammo or components if you reload. I picked mine up last summer for $1210.00 from a nearby gun shop. Oh and before you read all the kimber hate posts I will let you know I've put almost 15,000 rounds through my GMII all on 5 stock kimber mags, and I haven't had a single malfuntion yet. I also have an RIA GI that is fitted better than any colt I've seen in the past five years and it's not very good. I'm partial to Sig Sauer, and Kimber 1911's but thats just because there the ones I've had the best luck with.
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WoodchuckAssassin
Member
I've seen way to many Kimbers with rusted "stainless Steel" barrels for them to get my vote (though many people will stand by their Kimbers).
Colt is, well, Colt. They've been the gold standard for as long as people have been pulling triggers, buuuuuuut there are many companies out there that are now turning out products just as good as Colt.
My vote is Ed Brown. I have yet to EVER hear a bad word about their guns. If I was going to buy one, Id be the Ed Brown.
Just to be clear, I haven't shot any of these pistols myself, nor will I ever be able to afford one
Colt is, well, Colt. They've been the gold standard for as long as people have been pulling triggers, buuuuuuut there are many companies out there that are now turning out products just as good as Colt.
My vote is Ed Brown. I have yet to EVER hear a bad word about their guns. If I was going to buy one, Id be the Ed Brown.
Just to be clear, I haven't shot any of these pistols myself, nor will I ever be able to afford one
Dudemeister
Member
I can't say I have a lot of 1911 experience, I only own one, but I've shot a few, and if money was an object (and I'm sure it is), I don't think you can do any better for a grand than the Sig 1911, the only possible exception might be the Springfield Armory.
Someone mentioned earlier they spend $1000 for the gun, and another $1500 to tune it up. I just can't see doing that. The Sig has match grade barrel, trigger and sear, it's tight yet smooth and while I'm sure it can be tweaked further, I don't see any point in doing so, because it's better out of the box than I can ever hope to be.
Someone mentioned earlier they spend $1000 for the gun, and another $1500 to tune it up. I just can't see doing that. The Sig has match grade barrel, trigger and sear, it's tight yet smooth and while I'm sure it can be tweaked further, I don't see any point in doing so, because it's better out of the box than I can ever hope to be.
Kyle M.
Member
Yes the Sigs are a very good value for the money in my experience the Sig TacOps is the best 1911 money can buy. The only thing on that gun thats not steel is the aluminum trigger. Also according to a sig rep I spoke to the only MIM parts on there 1911's are the slide stop and disconnector.
Brown would be the choice, The Kimber is a awesome gun and way better then people give it credit for. I have that very model you are looking at and it is fantastic. But of the 3 you have listed, I would put it 3rd, That is some great company and I have a liking for the pony
Skylerbone
Member
I'm not gonna bash Kimber or Colt or Sig stock trigger feel, I've found a number that were reasonably crisp and light but I can promise people that there is a difference with a well tuned trigger.
A Match barrel gets its accuracy from being carefully fitted. Over cut any single dimension by a few .001 and it may as well be stamped BASIC GRADE. It isn't that everyone or even most will wring out the accuracy potential of an expertly fit 1911 but why tout features that, for the most part aren't? Testing with barrel fixtures have demonstrated the accuracy gap between Kart Match and Colt standard are minuscule. Everything comes down to the mechanic and the external dimensions of the barrel.
That additional money is more than a tune-up. It's first-rate parts, controls that are ergonomic for you, better fit to extend the life of the pistol and yes, increased accuracy.
Some examples of OEM parts. The bare finish is from initial clean up to remove sharp edges etc. the dots denote these are MIM.
OEM barrel from same 1911 with lug shoulders rounding off after ~500 rounds:
In contrast, many correctly fit barrels will see upwards of 200,000 rounds before replacement due to wear on the bore.
A Match barrel gets its accuracy from being carefully fitted. Over cut any single dimension by a few .001 and it may as well be stamped BASIC GRADE. It isn't that everyone or even most will wring out the accuracy potential of an expertly fit 1911 but why tout features that, for the most part aren't? Testing with barrel fixtures have demonstrated the accuracy gap between Kart Match and Colt standard are minuscule. Everything comes down to the mechanic and the external dimensions of the barrel.
That additional money is more than a tune-up. It's first-rate parts, controls that are ergonomic for you, better fit to extend the life of the pistol and yes, increased accuracy.
Some examples of OEM parts. The bare finish is from initial clean up to remove sharp edges etc. the dots denote these are MIM.
OEM barrel from same 1911 with lug shoulders rounding off after ~500 rounds:
In contrast, many correctly fit barrels will see upwards of 200,000 rounds before replacement due to wear on the bore.
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cyclopsshooter
Member
Skylerbone is spot-on
From another:
The slide-stop is the small part you LEAST want to be made from MIM
From another:
The slide-stop is the small part you LEAST want to be made from MIM
Skylerbone
Member
Consider that slide stop. One measly part right? Can you spot the one in this picture that cost me $50? Not a drop in part either, but for a hard, tough, dimensionally excellent part was worth it.
Kyle M.
Member
15,000 + rounds through that sig not one malfunction yet. I could care less if the internals were made of paper if they could find a way to make it work and work well. There is no hard evidence to show that MIM is inferior and anyone who has the time to worry about what there gun is made of when it works fine has way too much free time.
cyclopsshooter
Member
Broadly saying MIM is bad is not my intent. There is good MIM and bad, there are also good parts and bad to choose MIM for. Sure, my M&P40c has a bunch of MIM.. I'm ok with that because those parts were designed with MIM in mind.
The 1911 was designed a century ago to be made from cut steel.
What runs better with a catalyitic converter? The 351 in a 92 F-250 or one of the new engine designs used now?
A Smith revolver is generally slimmer in areas than a Ruger revolver. The Smith is forged, the Ruger is cast... yet Rugers are damn stout.. more dimensional material is used-
This can not be on a 1911- And yes, I have a lot of free-time. I went to school so I could work less for more.
The 1911 was designed a century ago to be made from cut steel.
What runs better with a catalyitic converter? The 351 in a 92 F-250 or one of the new engine designs used now?
A Smith revolver is generally slimmer in areas than a Ruger revolver. The Smith is forged, the Ruger is cast... yet Rugers are damn stout.. more dimensional material is used-
This can not be on a 1911- And yes, I have a lot of free-time. I went to school so I could work less for more.
Skylerbone
Member
Kyle, allow me to elaborate if you will. To further what cyclopsshooter has pointed out there are indeed materials best suited in any application based on need. Take knives for example. Read a few postings the other day about materials use and the reasoning behind it.
One fellow asserted that "harder is better, period". Carbide is hard but brittle, not the sort of material suitable for making blades from. Tough also matters which means a certain amount of flexibility if you will to go along with hardness.
Now MIM is dimensionally uniform from sample to sample but as with any part garbage in is garbage out. Because there is shrinkage during the process the parts mold must be oversized and the mold maker must estimate the final size then compare results to expectations. Also, because this is similar to casting, there will be certain areas that will display irregularities, what we call MIM Dots where material is introduced to the mold.
MIM as noted above is not necessarily "inferior" to barstock material but it will be more porous meaning strength is compromised. The usage determines whether or not that is a factor. That is where a guy like cyclops is concerned about what's in his pistol and where.
Below is one of the slide stops I previously photographed and the thumb safety from the same 1911. This particular pistol was riding the link and was literally cutting into the pin. Measuring the slide stop along the pin also revealed a variance between .195-.200 These are the sort of internals common to off-the-shelf 1911s as was the fit of the barrel which imparted the damage.
The thumb safety clearly displays its dot (not photographed on the slide stop) on the pin, not an area on either that you'd want to sacrifice strength. Again indicative of the species and the reason some of us care to trifle over what's what.
With a Wilson (and some models include MIM parts) or a Baer or DW (neither use MIM) you're not just paying for a name or for accuracy or for a nicer trigger feel or for relieved edges. You're also paying for a pistol carefully fit with excellent parts that will work better and last longer. 15,000 rounds may be 3 lifetimes of shooting to one guy and half a season to the next.
If ever resale value enters the equation for me I have to question the validity of my purchase. IOW, I don't buy firearms to sell.
One fellow asserted that "harder is better, period". Carbide is hard but brittle, not the sort of material suitable for making blades from. Tough also matters which means a certain amount of flexibility if you will to go along with hardness.
Now MIM is dimensionally uniform from sample to sample but as with any part garbage in is garbage out. Because there is shrinkage during the process the parts mold must be oversized and the mold maker must estimate the final size then compare results to expectations. Also, because this is similar to casting, there will be certain areas that will display irregularities, what we call MIM Dots where material is introduced to the mold.
MIM as noted above is not necessarily "inferior" to barstock material but it will be more porous meaning strength is compromised. The usage determines whether or not that is a factor. That is where a guy like cyclops is concerned about what's in his pistol and where.
Below is one of the slide stops I previously photographed and the thumb safety from the same 1911. This particular pistol was riding the link and was literally cutting into the pin. Measuring the slide stop along the pin also revealed a variance between .195-.200 These are the sort of internals common to off-the-shelf 1911s as was the fit of the barrel which imparted the damage.
The thumb safety clearly displays its dot (not photographed on the slide stop) on the pin, not an area on either that you'd want to sacrifice strength. Again indicative of the species and the reason some of us care to trifle over what's what.
With a Wilson (and some models include MIM parts) or a Baer or DW (neither use MIM) you're not just paying for a name or for accuracy or for a nicer trigger feel or for relieved edges. You're also paying for a pistol carefully fit with excellent parts that will work better and last longer. 15,000 rounds may be 3 lifetimes of shooting to one guy and half a season to the next.
If ever resale value enters the equation for me I have to question the validity of my purchase. IOW, I don't buy firearms to sell.
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wacki
Member
Do they publish this information on their website? I can't find it.
Skylerbone
Member
Jazzdoc, I think you're really going to like that Valor. Some say DW used to be a bargain but are overpriced at present. I say show me any other brand 1911 with similar features selling in their price range. You can almost always cue the crickets.
Wrapping up the MIM talk, it is fairly common knowledge as to what is MIM and what is tool steel.
Wrapping up the MIM talk, it is fairly common knowledge as to what is MIM and what is tool steel.
I do not really understand why so many people tend to dislike Kimbers. I have a series 1 Gold Combat and it has been flawless in every aspect. The gun is exceptionally accurate as well. I am new to the 1911 scene however, so I cannot compare the Gold Combat to any other 1911's. Here is a picture.
Pierce
Member
My (Defender) love it, it almost aims itself. My Kimber is without fault, point shoot very boring, love it. Would love to test an Ed.
(1) Kimber
(2) Defender
or
(1) Defender
)2) Kimber
I worked up a Charles Daley a few years ago that turned into a very fine shooting gun, I actually miss it. It took a little TLC but responded flawlessly with everything I asked of it.
Colts need to get back into more meticulous deburring. Open them up and so often the hanging burrs which shouldn't be there..are. Sharp edges etc. cost cutting is obvious. If you like to tinker they provide the opportunity.
(1) Kimber
(2) Defender
or
(1) Defender
)2) Kimber
I worked up a Charles Daley a few years ago that turned into a very fine shooting gun, I actually miss it. It took a little TLC but responded flawlessly with everything I asked of it.
Colts need to get back into more meticulous deburring. Open them up and so often the hanging burrs which shouldn't be there..are. Sharp edges etc. cost cutting is obvious. If you like to tinker they provide the opportunity.
jhco
Member
Nothing wrong with Ed Brown, but every time I hear someone speak the name I fell compelled to tell them to check out Les Baer before deciding.
CZ57
member
Don't mean to bash MIM, but the biggest question involving MIM seems to be how well it's executed. At this time I don't believe it is as well executed as precision casting. I prefer my pistols to not have MIM parts. Not until reports of MIM parts failing cease to exist, anyway.
Ed Brown, Les Baer and Wilson do not use MIM parts. But, at a more reasonable price you can get the excellent Dan Wesson pistols who do not use MIM parts either. Of two shooters I know, one has an Ed Brown and one has a Dan Wesson VBob. After examining and shooting the Dan Wesson, the Ed Brown owner stated that there just isn't any need to spend more for what you get with a Dan Wesson.
Ed Brown, Les Baer and Wilson do not use MIM parts. But, at a more reasonable price you can get the excellent Dan Wesson pistols who do not use MIM parts either. Of two shooters I know, one has an Ed Brown and one has a Dan Wesson VBob. After examining and shooting the Dan Wesson, the Ed Brown owner stated that there just isn't any need to spend more for what you get with a Dan Wesson.
Agreed, CZ! The DW series of pistols offers a standard of quality unmatched for the asking price. The OP should consider a DW.
I had a MIM-ber Raptor 2, great shooter, but once I took it apart the flaws were noticable, mainly being the guide rod wouldn't stay in place under the spring pressure. It just kept popping up, which makes it impossible to fit frame to slide! The plastic mainspring housing was annoying for the $$ spent, and the finish was botched in places. For supposedly coming from a "custom shop", which I knew before buying it wasn't true, it ranked low on my list as far as value is concerened.
Long story short, my LGS loves selling Kimbers, and knowing this, they had a DW Valor I liked, so I came up with $200 cash and had me a great deal on a DW V-Bob. I couldn't be happier with it!!
I had a MIM-ber Raptor 2, great shooter, but once I took it apart the flaws were noticable, mainly being the guide rod wouldn't stay in place under the spring pressure. It just kept popping up, which makes it impossible to fit frame to slide! The plastic mainspring housing was annoying for the $$ spent, and the finish was botched in places. For supposedly coming from a "custom shop", which I knew before buying it wasn't true, it ranked low on my list as far as value is concerened.
Long story short, my LGS loves selling Kimbers, and knowing this, they had a DW Valor I liked, so I came up with $200 cash and had me a great deal on a DW V-Bob. I couldn't be happier with it!!
I have the Ed Brown Special Forces "set" and they are superb in just about every way. The one improvement Ed Brown could make is to offer a salt nitride finish. As it is, my SFs are all stainless so I'm not concerned about corrosion. In the spirit of full disclosure, I did have to send the Carry model back to have the chamber deepened just a hair. It's proven to be just fine since then.
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