Need advice for Parents...

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Yosho

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Hello all,

This is my first post here, though I've been lurking for the past year. I’m a gun novice but thanks to this forum and other sites on the web… at least a well read novice. ;) I’m in the USAF, and my experience with guns is limited to the M16/M4 and M9, though I do plan on buying a 870 or 590 shotgun for HD when I get back home (currently on my 3rd deployment to the sandbox).

Enough about me though, I need some advice. My parents are interested in buying their first gun and have asked me for my thoughts on it. They're both in their late 60's/early 70's and have never owned a gun before. Their sole purpose for this gun is home defense. They live in a residential neighborhood in Florida with large lots. The homes are all constructed of block and are set back pretty far from the street… so over penetration is not a huge concern. The gun would be used in conjunction with a layered security/defense plan… so ideally they would have time to retreat to a back bedroom and wait for the 5 to 10 minutes for the police to arrive. The gun needs to be simple to operate, reliable, and easy to aim… price needs to be under $2k. My Dad would probably be the primary person to use it in an emergency… and he’s right handed. My Mom is left handed, but I’m not sure if she would use the weapon that way or not. I'm stationed near them, and plan to acompany them to the range regularly.

I’ve already looked at Shotguns with my Dad and I think they might be too much for him in a few years… and certainly too much for my Mom now, so they’re out. Hand guns are probably out as well… in a recent e-mail, she sent this to me… “As for a gun, I think it would be dangerous for me to use a revolver. Age has caused the joints in my trigger hand to deteriorate and consequently I'm always dropping things. I'd be better off with something big and two handed.” This leads me to a smaller caliber carbine. I was thinking an H&K USC .45 might do the trick. It’s fairly light at 6lbs but bigger (obviously) than a handgun so it’s easier for old hands to hold it. Its extra mass should also reduce its felt recoil. It’s easy to aim. It’s reliable. It still has good knock down power with a .45ACP round. It’s standard mag holds 10rds, it’s optional mags hold 20rds. The 10rd mag would probably be enough, but I’d buy a 20 just to see how it worked ergonomically for them. What does everyone think of this suggestion? What would you suggest if they were your Mom and Dad instead?

Brad
 
First off, WELCOME!

Second, do your Parents have any health issues affecting thier ability to shoot? Are they Diabetic? Are they on medication that will alter time, perception, judgement? Are they under any kind of danger from bone breakage or other pain, damage to thier bodies from recoil? How good are thier eyes?

Is Oxygen being used in the home?

What happens in a few years to 15 years they become unable to effectively live by themselves and need care of some kind? Who knows? They may life to be 115 and out run you on your 5 mile run.

Many questions I know.

Handguns are about a thousand each and quite a few less than that, shotguns almost as much.

Your Parents are going to have to go into a gunshop and go over a pile of weapons until they find one that fits nicely and can be understood. The one parent may not necessarily like what the other likes.

So your 2K budget is a nice one. There is a possibility that both parents will each have a gun that THAT one parent likes.

Finally, how do your Parents feel about having to fire upon another person invading thier home? Wait, dont tell me.

You say they live in a gated community. That's nice. But pray tell me, why are they WANTING a gun now?

Obama? Fear? Recent Crime in that community? Did someone else they know get hurt, victim of crime or invasion?

Many more questions.

On a second review of your post, shotguns are out. That leaves handguns. I use the M&P .45 myself but dont know how wife will handle that gun yet. Will find out soon.

Finally but not last, consider www.taser.com thier X26 or C2 can drop a intruder and fry him or her as well.

There are also other threads on this forum discussing disabilities and weapons.

Anyhow. Welcome!
 
Have a panic room built. Then they can run and hide in there. Oh, and have a button installed that releases poison gas throughout the house! JK

What shotguns have your parents looked at? Look at some 20g or .410 then its not too much recoil and somewhat light, 2 handed. BUT FIRST! Make sure they are ready to use a gun and make sure they know how to use it effectively. No real point if they are going to be frightened of taking someone's life or if they don't know how to chamber a round/aim/pull trigger. A criminal may just get insulted and could result in even more trouble for your parents. Also check a beretta c4 storm or HiPoint 9mm carbine.
 
I think that given the situation an M1 Carbine would be ideal. It has plenty of stopping power is easy to use and does not weigh much. Recoil is very light and accuracy and dependability are superb. You can find one all over for $500-800 depending on condition. Ammunition is a little steeper than 9mm.

I would avoid the Hi-Point as the lower quality metal will likely rust in the Florida Humidity. I would also avoid the C4 as this might intimidate them and they would not practice with it.

A good second choice would be the Marlin Camp Carbine in either .45 or 9mm. Not as much stopping power but plenty to get the job done.

I would stay away from Tasers. Somebody can get tased multiple times and still get up. Unless your parents are in a position to subdue an attacker(s) after he is tased this could be a recipe for disaster.

BTW: Hope you make it home safe and sound!
 
what about a .410 shotgun no real kick and with a slug or buck shot good enoug to stock someone

idk get either a pump of a double barrel
the double is very easy to operate and gives you a quick follow up shot

or an m1 carbine
 
A double 410 or a hi-point in 9mm

I know 9mm isn't popular, but ur pushing it out of a long rifle, which should give the gas more time to expand, pushing the bullet more accurratly and faster
 
Wow, thank you for the quick replies and the warm welcome.

HS and Big E - Great questions. I hadn't thought of some of them. Here are the answers to the best of my knowledge.

Health issues - I know they both take Cholesterol medication. Beyond that, I'm not really sure. I'm fairly certain that they don't take anything that would alter their moods or change their perception of time/reality in any way. Fortunately, they don't have any mental deficient yet that I know of and none in our family history. They both wear glasses and their vision, while not great, appears to be sufficiently corrected. They both drive (though in Florida, that's not really saying much). There is no Oxygen used in the house. They are both in generally good health for their ages and are quite active and mobile in their retirement.

There are many options available for them as they get older and need help living on their own. Both my wife and I have made it clear to both sets of our parents that they're welcome to come live with us when the time comes. It's a nice option for them to have, and we get along great with both sets of parents.

A trip to several guns stores is certainly in order... I've already told them the most important thing is finding a gun that is physically comfortable for them to use. If it's not comfortable to shot, they won't practice with it.

As for shooting to kill an intruder... I don't think they'd have a problem with that. They realize that anyone intent on doing harm needs to be dealt with.

I thought about Tasers and to a lesser extent Pepper spray, but they both have their drawbacks in this retreat and defend concept. I think they'd work best in the spray/taser and run to safety scenario.

Side note: An M&P 45 is one of my top candidates for a companion to the shotgun in my HD plan. ;)

They do plan on building a panic room in the next 5 years or so when they renovate the master bedroom and add a walk in closet. For now though, that's still a ways off.

Their reason for considering their first gun is largely due to me. My wife and I just bought our first home last year and have made several security upgrades (with more to come) and have done a lot of research on home defense/security. This has sparked a lot of conversation, and have spurred them to start their own plan. Better late than never! Growing up there, I think we all had a false sense of security... 30 years ago, it was a small town out in the country. Now it's a giant bedroom community. The neighborhood isn't gated BTW.

With the economic downturn (and more on the way imo despite what the talking heads are saying about the market), I think it's only a good idea to be a self sufficient as possible... that includes defense and safety. It's not the police's job to protect us, it's our job.

Brad
 
^^^
I'm just here to help. Try checking out a .338 Lapua then. :p

The neighbrhood I have lived about 99% of my life is now becoming more dangerous. It was safe 18 years ago but recently with all the development things are starting to look "interesting"

I forgot about the humidity in Florida, here in Bakersfield it's a dry heat. The Hi-point might rust but store it in a silicon bag or something to keep the rust out and keep it wel oiled.
 
Firstly, welcome to THR and thank you for your service.

Another option is the Saiga .410. I do think a pistol caliber carbine is an excellent choice, though.
 
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Mossberg makes a sweet little .410 pump with a short barrel. It's light and very easy to handle. With your budget, they could have one in every room and still have some dough left over for practice.
 
I'll second the idea of the M1 carbine for all the above stated reasons.

If they don't mind spending some money an AR carbine with a light contour barrel, a light, and a reflex sight could be a good choice. It will offer low recoil, won't kick brass in your mom's face, will be light in weight, and has a wide array of appropriate ammo to choose from.

For that matter a Ruger Mini-14 offers pretty much the same advantages with the benefit of an ambidextrous safety.
 
I would suggest a Mossberg 500 in .20 gauge, or, if that's too much, .410. If loaded with the right ammunition, it shouldn't be untameable even for seniors, and will suffice for home defense. Cheap, reliable, and you easily slap a flashlight on it. Of course, a firearm's just one aspect of home security. Getting shatterproof windows, an alarm system, and remembering to keep doors locked are also great barriers to home invasion.
 
A long gun is probably better than a handgun, from what you've described.

From that, a 410 shotgun loaded with 00 buck would be my first instinct.

CZ makes a nice petite 410 SxS with a single trigger that may be just the ticket. I think that a single trigger would be easier for a novice to work than a double trigger setup (altho I favor the double trigger for myself).
 
Yosho,

Welcome to THR.

You're doing a good thing helping the folks out like this. While I think the HK is a great option, I'm not sure I understand why a handgun is out of the question. I doubt your mom would be shooting one handed. Therefore, a handgun would be just as two-handed as a rifle would be. Don't discount the advantages that a revolver can provide.

1. Simple to operate (no safety, etc.)
2. There is no slide to rack. Even on a carbine you'll have to rack the bolt. I don't know about the HK but on my Marlin Camp 45 racking the bolt can be a chore for somebody without a lot of strength.
3. A 38 is a decent enough man stopper and in the right configuration is large enough to be easy to hold and is a light recoiling gun.
4. The money is right.

Good luck and thanks for your service.
 
I like the .410 idea. Also it would be easier to operate than a semi automatic rifle...and easier to aim than a handgun. You don't have to worry about magazines or how to chamber a round, etc. There's not a bunch of controls that they would have to learn as far as operation goes. With a pump action you can have it with a full tube and an empty chamber with the safety off. Pump, point, and fire. Hard to beat the point and click interface of the shotgun. It's an intimidating weapon that everyone knows. No bad guy is going to stick around and wonder whether it's a .410 or a 12 gauge when they hear a shell being chambered in a pump action. A sxs would be a good choice too.
 
I just want to say that a 20ga shotgun has a LOT of recoil for a small-framed non-shooter. I'm 5'9", 152lbs, and in decent shape. I happily shoot .22 to .45 to .357 in handguns, and after a round of sporting clays I have a headache from my full-size wood-stocked 20ga mossberg 500. Sure, in an emergency it will go unnoticed, but in practice it will be unpleasant. My partner is 35lbs smaller than me, has nerves of steel and good technique, but that shotgun hurts her. I doubt your 'rents would like it either. AND it's looong to operate. They kick about like a .308. That's not "low recoil" except to the macho.
I'd say .410 is the top in the fixed-breech shotgun market.

The carbines sound like a good idea. There are the lever-action carbines in a variety of calibers. How about a .357? Arthritic thumbs will have trouble decocking the hammer, tho the new production 1894c models from Marlin have hammer block safeties which solve that problem *if* it is used, or the gun is just made safe by emptying the mag via the lever. The other pistol-caliber carbines sound like a great idea too.

-Daizee
 
An M1 Carbine seems like a great option. Especially if your Mom or Dad are interested in its historical significance.

Second on my list to meet your criteria would be an AR carbine in .223.

Third would be a 20ga pump shotgun. I would move a shotgun up to first if your Mom and Dad are at all interested in shooting skeet or trap to practice.

It would be ideal to get them into some sort of shooting club or weekly/monthly competition to get used to whichever gun they choose. Even if it's informal, competition helps your get to know things quickly.

Welcome to THR!
 
Reduced recoil rounds on the 20 gauge do work as advertised, as did the winlites in the 870. But the winlites grabbed the rim from time to time on eject.

Ive switched to brenneke's managed recoil tatical home defense slugs (35 yards) and it wont matter if intruder is wearing vest for the 12 gauge.

But back to handgun. Im having a hell of a time finding speer gold dot ammuntion in that 45 ACP caliber but hopefully will soon. I dont know anything about generic re-loaded rounds and avoid them.

Because of my problems, you might want to consider another caliber.

A panic room is a awesome thing to have. Hurricane or invader, they can sit there and wait for Leos in safety.

May I suggest a 72 hour grab bag MRE/water kit from a vendor like Epiccenter out of Oregon? For each of your parents they can survive in that panic room for a time.

A carbine is good too, but make it a good strong caliber capable of stopping a man. I cannot bring myself to recommend any of the really small carbines that will only enrage a badguy.

Another item for security is a dog. A good loyal dog that will provide early warning.

Cheers.
 
Short .410 shotgun with buck shot or slugs. You can find a side by side, but mossberg makes a short barrel pump home defense gun also. The side by side is very easy to opperate and you get 2 quick shots.

A 410 slug at bedroom distances is devistating. You can also find good buckshot in a 410 that is very effective at bedroom distances.

Remember, anything is better than nothing. An 80 year old lady recently held an intruder with a 22 lr pistol until the cops came. Easy to operate is paramount, that's why I suggest a side by side. Just open, load, close and pull the trigger. A pump is simple for most of us, but if it were my dad, I'm not sure he could operate it under stress.

Good luck and I hope they never need to use it.
 
Lovesbeer brings up something very interesting.

Stress.

I watched a grocery cashier recently attempt to unwrap a roll of pennies to make change for me. She found the roll to be something very small and too tiny to work because of stress. There were like 10 in line, all with bulging carts of groceries etc. You can see it.

I gave her a spare penny to make her change to me a nickel. Saved alot of fumbling.

Something to think about.

I myself find my vehicle a tiny "Go-cart" when I am under stress. If it does not make sense to you, ignore it.
 
There are some very cute .410 doubles around, usually fixed-chokes. The re-branded imports are good looking. I don't "need" one, and they mount poorly for me or I'd have a pair. The CZ is really really pretty.

I think a .410 slug puts out .357-.44mag energies or so, depending on range and load, but would be much easier to shoot. Of course finding a decent ammo selection might be tough.

a 9-round butt cuff on one of those would make a pretty effective go-gun in the hands of a practiced shooter.

-Daizee
 
My advice would be for your parents to get 9mm pistols. They might even have fun and enjoy going to the range to shoot a couple of times a month. Good single/double action self loading pistols can be found for around $500 more or less and 9mm ammo is still cheap enough to shoot a box a week without breaking most peoples banks. I would suggest getting mom and dad both the same kind and cal pistol and one with a de-cocker that can be kept in a nightstand with one in the tube. Your mom might even be surprised at how easy it is to operate a pistol, especially if she practices and finds out that shooting with a two hand hold is akin to a hand massage if she has joint problems.

If they are not familiar with firearms handling and safety, have them take a course or pay a coach to teach them how to shoot.....I do not suggest any classes other than proper shooting methods. Self defense classes are probably a waste of time and money when all they desire is self protection in their home. It takes little more than the ability to operate the firearm to accomplish that goal. And it takes little more ability than to put six or seven rounds through a 2'6" by 6'8" opening (doorway) to provide adequate protection in most cases.

If your parents are concerned but not familiar with firearms, lets not make this more complicated than it needs to be. Comfort in handling and ability to hit a target is about all that is required. Having fun practicing is really an added bonus.
 
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