Need advice re: Herco and .38 special 158 LRN

[1KPerDay]

Lyman says nothing, Hornady says nothing, Lee die sheet says start at 4.2 and 4.4 max, Alliant site has no loads for herco in .38 special any more, but the older stuff I have from the 90s has 4.5 max for 158 LSWC.

This guy http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/270028-38-special-158gr-lrn-study-part-4-a.html used 5.2 grains...

Any advice?

While we're on the subject, I'd also like to start loading .45 ACP (230 MBC "softball), 9mm (MBC 124 "smallball", and .40 (140 gr MBC IDPA and 180 grn MBC lead) with Herco if possible. I have 4 pounds of it and I hear good things.

 

[joneb]

My data from Alliant is from 2004 it does not give data for 158gr LRN.
But it does list data for 158gr LSWC for 38spl with F-100 and a min. COL of 1.42" The charge is 4.5gr of Herco for 930 fps from a 5.6" test barrel and 15,800 psi.

 

[1KPerDay]

Yeah, I think that's the data sheet I have as well, or its precursor.

 

[Steve Koski]

Herco?

You need to find a reloader that is over 85 years old.

 

[joneb]

I will keep looking.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

When there's no data for a caliber/powder combination there's usually a very good reason. It's even worse when there was data and the powder company removes it. That's usually a very bad sign...

Sorry but I know that's not what you wanted to hear.

 

[joneb]

I could not find any data for that combination. If you can find a load for Unique with that bullet I would work up from that, as the Herco loads average 2/10 of grain of more powder apples to apples.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

There are so many good powders out there for use in the .38 Special. Why would you want to use a powder that's questionable in that caliber?

Herco is an "on the slow side" shotgun powder that is really not suited for standard pressure .38 Special loads. With Unique, Universal, True Blue, Power Pistol, AA#5, HS-6 and a few other choices with a similar burn rate, why push Herco?

 

[1KPerDay]

kay

 

[1KPerDay]

For anyone who browses up this thread, I found some info in an old post FYI

http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Freebies/RM/Alliant/Hercules1992.pdf

handgun loads start on p.44

More manuals and info:
http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Freebies/RM/Alliant.html

 

[Steve C]

There are so many powders out there from old to new that the manuals only choose a few to list, not necessarily because they are any better than others but because of popularity and to publish data for new powders on the market.

Herco has been manufactured and used in reloading handgun ammo for many years. Data is available from many sources in earlier manuals published perhaps 5 to10 years ago. It is a slower powder for use in handguns with a burn rate between Power Pistol and Blue Dot similar to HS-6. Because of its burn rate Herco is at the slower end of powder useful in the .38 spl.

Alliant doesn't list Herco loads on their website since they became Corporately joined with Speer in the ATK Corp and now only list load data developed by Speer, probably as a cost savings.

Below is 158gr data for Herco from Speer #10. None of these loads are not very hot in my experience and pretty much are the same or a bit lighter as current data when comparing other powders.

 

[zxcvbob]

Alliant (before they stripped most of the cast bullet data out of their load book) recommended 4.5 grains max for standard pressure loads, and 4.7 max for "+P". The pressures given for both are less than SAAMI max, so there's still a little headroom. The 5.2 grains that someone mentioned is not ridiculous, but I'd start at about 4 grains and work my way up; probably stop at a good load less than 5.

A lot of people load Unique @ 5.0 grains and heavier, and Herco is basically the same powder but slower burning.

Herco is an outstanding powder in magnum handguns using heavy cast bullets. In .38 Special... well, it's probably better than Blue Dot Good luck.

 

[1KPerDay]

Thanks guys. Maybe I'll start loading .357 finally.

 

[JLDickmon]

IIRC, Herco liked larger cases better than smaller ones..

I haven't even SEEN any in years, much less used it..

 

[SHR970]

Herco aka Flaming Dirt's slower cousin works quite well with cast bullets...even in the 38. It runs best with the heavier bullets (158 and above) and at the upper end of the spectrum. Actually it has given me better performance than Flaming Dirt (Unique) with lead bullets overall.

This nonsense about it being a bad sign that it was taken out of the loading manuals (on line in particular) is malarkey. They have also taken out Red Dot, Green Dot, and a lot of Blue Dot data also. I have burned a few lbs. of these powders in my time behind various bullets and am still running out my old stocks.

Personally I would use that older data with no fear unless I am doing it in a gun that isn't rated for +P pressures because I run it at book max. for standard pressure loads as my start. If I want lighter target loads I'll use W231, or my stocks of Red or Green Dot.

 

[SHR970]

P.S. I have the data from the Hercules 1990 and 1992 manuals; 1992 includes 40 S&W. If you want / need the info PM me and I'll send it for each of the calibers ans specific weights you requested.

 

[joneb]

I have some 170 gr LSWC That I would like to pair up with Herco for .357 mag.

 

[GP100man]

Herco & HI SKOR 800X are very close in burn speed .

When I find no data for Herco I drop 5% from the starting loads of 800x.

 

[1KPerDay]

I have some 170 gr LSWC That I would like to pair up with Herco for .357 mag.

that 1992 data I liked above has some .357 data for 170 FMC. Not lead, but should be close.

BTW initial tests of herco in .38 with 158 LRN are not particularly good. the 4.0 load was accurate by my standards (1 inch at 21 feet) but lots of unburnt flakes and crap. 4.2 wasn't as accurate, lots of soot/unburnt stuff in the cases, 4.5 felt closer to a factory load and was pretty accurate, and less unburnt stuff but still lots of crud. I may try one more at 4.7 to see if it burns any cleaner, but otherwise I'm giving up on this combo. I'll try some in .45 ACP for outdoor competition and if it's not too dirty I'll use it for that, and maybe some magnum stuff.

 

[ljnowell]

BTW initial tests of herco in .38 with 158 LRN are not particularly good. the 4.0 load was accurate by my standards (1 inch at 21 feet) but lots of unburnt flakes and crap. 4.2 wasn't as accurate, lots of soot/unburnt stuff in the cases, 4.5 felt closer to a factory load and was pretty accurate, and less unburnt stuff but still lots of crud. I may try one more at 4.7 to see if it burns any cleaner, but otherwise I'm giving up on this combo. I'll try some in .45 ACP for outdoor competition and if it's not too dirty I'll use it for that, and maybe some magnum stuff.
__________________

Yep, that happens. After coming across some ancient data for 2400 in 38 special, I just had to try it. It produced satisfactory results. Satisfactory meaning that the bullet pretty well went where I aimed and it went bang. It was dirty though, leaving lots of unburned powder, even at max load. It was just too slow of a powder for the application to be optimal.

It was fun experimenting with it though. I am glad that I did.

 

[GaryL]

I think Herco is great in 45acp. But, unburnt flakes and crap means fewer rounds and more cleaning. Not a big deal for some.

 

[SHR970]

4.5 felt closer to a factory load and was pretty accurate, and less unburnt stuff but still lots of crud. I may try one more at 4.7 to see if it burns any cleaner, but otherwise I'm giving up on this combo.

Flaming Dirt's cousin is still going to be cruddy at 4.7 gr, to get it to clean up to any degree you'll need to push it harder than 38 pressures. I'm sure you now understand why some of us don't abide by the "you just clean it after shooting anyways" meme when it comes to some powders. The only reason that I keep it around is I have some good field loads for my 20 gauge with that stuff. Even then I still have plenty of unburnt crud in the barrels to clean out.

So are you using the New Improved Cleaner Burning formula or the older Super Filthy formula?

 

[A Pause for the Coz]

Herco is AWESOME!!!! Dont think its the best pistol powder. But I will tell you what you are not going to find a better powder for 38/357 lever guns, at cast bullet velocities.

Once I found a Unique load that gave me great groups. I was underwhelmed by the Velocity.
What Herco does is give you 100 fps better speed at the same pressure loading.

So for my 158gr rnfp 5 gr Unique 38 special load, I use 6 gr Herco.
For my 125gr 4 gr unique I use 5 gr Herco.
I get my 100 fps better velocity and it even ups the accuracy.
I am finding it to be a very very good powder. I am buying it in the big jugs now.

 

[1KPerDay]

So are you using the New Improved Cleaner Burning formula or the older Super Filthy formula?

LOL it's the old extra-filthy formula, in a 4 lb metal can (just opened). I'll find a use for it in one caliber or another. I just prefer a cleaner powder for indoor range use so it doesn't dump crud everywhere when I eject the empties. I'm trying HP-38 now but it makes me a little nervous that you can fit a TRIPLE charge in the case...

Coz, 6 grains of herco behind a 158 grain pill is well above max on all .38 special info I can find, so I don't feel comfortable doing that, personally. Maybe if I had a strong rifle to run them through or something.