Need Confirmation/Advice/Help

[Jericho97]

Hey THR,

I'm newer to reloading and started with 9mm due to the shortage going on and just have a quick question for yall. I just finished a set of 50 using mixed once fired brass (ofb), cci sp primers, hornady 115g rn bullets, and CFE pistol powder (about 5.02 grains per load) COL 1.14". I have been using my glock 48 barrel as a tester to make sure the rounds will fit/feed correctly and not jam up. After finishing the process I noticed when the round went into the barrel it didn't slide in and out like normal factory ammo. I put a tighter crimp on it (this crimp is from the 3 die lee loader set) and noticed a very slight amount of brass get shaved off from the cases yet the crimp felt very similar to the Winchester 124g white box ammo crimp. I want to make sure before testing this ammo could there be any issues when firering this ammo such as a squib round getting stuck in my barrel and possibly doing damage. I have already reloaded 100 rounds previously to this current box of 50 and they worked perfectly with the same amount of powder (5.02g), COL 1.14", CCI sp primer, OFB mixed, but the bullets were speer instead of Hornady. I mainly asking this for info as to if this ammo would still be ok to shoot or is it better to dispose of it and no not throw it in the trash I have a place at my gun range that gets rid of bad ammo.

Thanks,
Jericho97

 

[Jericho97]

Edit: after looking around and reading on some threads and forums the bullet does pass the plunk barrel test and when I run my fingernail down the bullet it does catch on the case so it's not completely smooth to the case

 

[Suedenflames68]

Did you unintentionally seat the bullet farther into the case when you crimped more? Could be shaving the bullet some maybe if so. "Crimp" basically only needs to be "deflaring" for 9mm

What was different about the way the cartridge slid in and out of the chamber? Plunk tested to make sure bullet not contacting rifling?

 

[Suedenflames68]

I'm a slow typer

The case will and has to be a larger diameter than the bullet. It headspaces off the case mouth.

 

[Jericho97]

I seated the bullet to 1.15 OAL originally with a slight crimp similar to how I did my first batch of 100 rounds ( they had an OAL of 1.14") but when I tried the plunk test the bullet stayed in the barrel when flipping it upside down and required a small amount of push to get it out. I then shortened the OAL to 1.14" in case for my barrel 1.15" was a tad too much but the rounds again failed the plunk test requiring small amount of force to remove it from the barrel. I figured it required more crimp so I removed the bullet seating part of the die (unscrewed it from the die) and began to crimp till one setting worked thats when I found a small shaving of brass. It could just be the brass it self wasn't shaved down to matching sizes (from what I knew it wasn't required for 9mm luger). The difference with sliding I meant the plunk test ie with the original set small crimp 1.15" the round gets stuck now with the tighter crimp and shorter OAL the round slides in and out with ease (the plunk test).

 

[Suedenflames68]

Any chance for a picture. Be interested to see what that crimp looks like. Are you seating and crimping in the same step?

Would be kind of odd in my experience to have the crimp or lack of crimp cause it to stick. When I'm doing my decending oal plunk tests to find my proper seating depth for a new bullet it's in a expanded uncrimped case and haven't had the case ever cause a problem that I can recall.

Chamber good and clean? Empty expanded case move in and out freely?

I usually try for .010-.015 jump to the lands. I start out with a long oal and keep seating deeper in very small steps once I'm getting close . When it plunks and spins I increase the depth a bit more for that free bore. If you were contacting the barrel rifling at 1.150 and sounds like you still might be really close I would try to run through that process again and see if you can determine where you just pass the plunk .

I haven't looked up your load and dont have experience with that powder , but be aware that seating deeper increases pressure.

 

[Jericho97]

the first 2 images are the same 3 bullets just took 2 trying to get the best angle for them third picture is 3 more random ones from the same 50

I would assume this pack would still be fine to shoot I just want to make sure with people who have been doing this a lot longer then i have to confirm if these are good or if these are a bad batch and yes my barrel was both dirty and clean during the plunk test and gave me the same results of not sliding back out with the 1.15" and minor crimp and I am using a seating/crimping die but I usually seat the bullet first then crimp instead of trying to crimp and seat at the same time been told it is easier to seat then crimp with that die (this die is from the lee loader 3 die 9mm luger set for reference)

 

[FROGO207]

Your load sounds good. Those shavings could have been in there a while not noticed. Or they were from squeezing the brass when crimping if overly expanded. The idea of "crimping" an autopistol rounnd is to remove the bell you put into the brass so the bullet would slide in. The less expantion and the less taper crimp the better. That said, you have to crimp it enough to plunk into the barrel. A couple items every reloader should own are a set of calipers and a hammer type bullet puller. The first for making measurments and comparing factory crimp and yours at the mouth. You can take apart a round that is wrong with the hammer puller and use all the componants again. Last point is to try ONE OR TWO rounds in the barrel for correct plunk before making a mess of them up. Sounds like they will most likely shoot OK and squibs are from lack of powder not incorrect crimping.

 

[Walkalong]

That's way too much crimp. All the taper "crimp" should do is remove the flare/bell from where we expanded the case, or maybe .001 more. More"crimp" isn't the way to fix issues.

 

[lordpaxman]

Welcome to THR!
Picture 2 shows way too much crimp. It almost looks like a heavy roll crimp. 9mm headspaces on the case mouth so you should feel it when running your fingernail down the finished cartridge. There are numerous pictures posted on the forum from others but the only thing you should be removing is the bell or flare on the case, that’s all. Lucky you have an FMJ or you’d be swaging the lead bullet quite a bit.
If you’re correct in your assertion that you have them loaded short enough to pass a plunk test at 1.140”, then it’s most likely you have a slight case bulge lower than the case mouth. Quite possibly with that much crimp, you’ve deformed the case farther down. If you had a cartridge/chamber gauge, you could check it against that. A simple test to see if your sizing die is set correctly is to size a case and then see if it fits in your chamber. That’s another potential problem when rounds don’t pass the plunk test later, the case isn’t fully resized near the base.
If it were me, and the rounds chamber, I’d still shoot them. Good luck!

 

[GW Staar]

That's way too much crimp. All the taper "crimp" should do is remove the flare/bell from where we expanded the case, or maybe .001 more. More"crimp" isn't the way to fix issues.

Not only that.....the extra crimp caused the bulging....and thus the feeding problem.......the above is all you want. Buy a kinetic bullet puller....pull the bullets....run the brass through the expander die again.....recharge......then reseat and crimp as Walkalong described. No need to throw the rounds away.

 

[mmb617]

I have never needed to run my 9mm rounds through the crimp die. I use 1.125 COL which feeds in the 3 pistols I have in that caliber. At first I was doing a lot of plunk testing but I don't bother with that anymore as it's been thousands of rounds since I had any 9mm feed or extraction problems.

Could you be overexpanding the cases? With FMJ bullets I don't need to expand much since shaving isn't really a problem.

Now .45 ACP is a different story. Even though I try to keep case expansion to a minimum I still have to run those through the crimp die or I'll have feed problems.

 

[Suedenflames68]

That looks like some huge crimp. Unless the light is playing tricks on it I think I can see where at least one of the bullets is deformed from the crimp. Too much crimp can be bad as the case will spring back some but the bullet will stay deformed causing poor neck tension and the worry of bullet set back. I think that's generally not much of a worry with fmj but a bigger deal with lead.

You can measure OAL then push the bullet into the edge of your bench pretty hard and remeasure to check the tension to make sure set back wont be a problem. As long as your off the rifling, the load is still safe at the decreased oal, neck tension is sufficient to stop set back and they still headspace off the case mouth you should be relatively safe to fire them.

I also like making up a dummy round with no powder or primer to test plunk for OAL and also setback in your actuall pistol by slingshotting the slide several times chambering the round. Also makes for fast die setup by using it as a guide when setting up seating and crimping adjustments.

I was thinking you could pull one just to see if it deformed the bullet but I guess it wouldn't really matter as you wont be using that much crimp in the future.

I second the idea of trying a sized empty case in your chamber. Then try a expanded case to see if that causes any problems. Then add the bullet and start your descending OAL testing. This should show when your problem occurs.

 

[Texas10mm]

DAMN! That's not a crimp, that's a choke!

You need to shorten your OAL and lighten up on that crimp.

It's not a crimp when it comes to 9mm, it's a flare removal.

 

[Jericho97]

I want to thank everyone for the advice and suggestions on the load. I'm going to try to answer everything in one post but if yall have any more questions for me regarding the load im happy to answer along with any new advice. I believe 2 things happened with the case that I didn't notice was the flaring was a tad too much along with the resizing die was set wrong. After watching videos and reading post regarding the resizing/depriming die I run the arm without a case all the way up and screw down the die till it touches. I do know the crimp should only be slight amount and not squeeze the round like how this batch came out but the reason I added more which was wrong on my part was due to the plunk test failing hence why I believed it was lack of crimp. Tools wise I do have calipers hence why I was able to set the OAL but don't have the bullet pullet yet. Another point regarding the crimp when I run my fingernail down the round I do feel the case neck I just believe there is still too much crimp. From reading the post it seems they would still be ok firing wise just feeding would be an issue just want to make sure would these still be ok to shoot or no. Yes for my next back of 50 I have I plan on resizing and flaring them and making tester'(s) before doing all 50 again.

Edit: could one solutions be if i shorten the rounds to 1.13" OAL to fire them or is it better not to risk the extra pressure and stick to 1.14" or just toss them and cut my losses

 

[Dudedog]

Could be a brass issue.
I use mixed range brass and there will be a few that won't pass my case gauge.
The resize die can only go so low on the case.
If you have one it the future that won't plunk you can color it up with a sharpie and see where it is hanging up.
Could be the rim or the bottom of the case.
Very seldom if ever is more "crimp" in 9mm the answer.

 

[mdi]

FWIW; reload for 4 semi-auto cartridges. I do not "crimp" any. I just deflare with a taper crimp die. On all, my semi-auto handloads using cast, PCed, plated or jacketed bullets I flare as much as necessary (brass is cheap and I don't fret about "case life") and after seating a bullet use a taper crimp die to remove any flare. I plunk test in my tightest chamber (I have a 9mm that requires some bullets to be seated about .010" deeper so I use that barrel for plunk testing for all my 9mm pistols). Often a new reloader will apply too much crimp and bulge the case also leading to failed plunk testing. You mentioned your handloads didn't "slide in and out...". Will they enter the chamber all the way by their own weight, and fall out by themselves when the barrel is inverted?

 

[mstreddy]

OP, which dies are you using for the 9MM loading? I ask because there are some Hornady 9MM sets that bring a roll crimp/seat die instead of the taper crimp.

 

[Jericho97]

Dudedog more then likely its just the brass and where it was catching it was hard to tell I believe it was at the tip/neck area but it could of also been the back of the bullet/lower on the case. For everyone I have taken another picture of the rounds 4 random ones out of the box of 50 again after testing to see if feeding would be an issue I was able to take these 4 rounds load them in the mag and they cycled fine without firing them sine im on the clock have to wait for my break at work (I work at a gun range before people say why did you test cycle in your house) and yes this was done in the range. And yes mdi Now the rounds will chamber with their own weight an fall out under their own weight. Last night with the light taper crimp and 1.15" and 1.14" they didn't fall out or slide in easily but now with them set to 1.14" and the new crimp (the one in question) they chamber and fallout with ease.

 

[Jericho97]

OP, which dies are you using for the 9MM loading? I ask because there are some Hornady 9MM sets that bring a roll crimp/seat die instead of the taper crimp.

The die sets im using currently are the lee precision 9mm luger 3 die set.
Im assuming its either a roll crimp or a taper crimp

 

[azrocks]

That's way too much crimp. All the taper "crimp" should do is remove the flare/bell from where we expanded the case, or maybe .001 more. More"crimp" isn't the way to fix issues.

This exactly.

OP, Do you understand what people mean when they say the case headspaces on the case mouth? If you look inside your barrel, there's a circular ridge in your chamber upon which the mouth of the case will sit. This is what positions the cartridge, and prevents it from going any further into the chamber. With your bullets, this case mouth is crimped down to the point it's almost the same diameter of the bullet. So the case mouth is being pushed past this ridge where it should stop. Hence the plunk-test failure & the brass shavings.

When I load 9mm, I try my best to avoid having to put any bell at all on the case. Depending on the bullet & case prep this may or may not be possible. When it is - I don't crimp at all - since there isn't any bell to remove. When I do have to bell the case, I crimp just enough to remove it (as measured by calipers or a mic - your eyes are not going to be good enough). Think of the crimp more along the lines of something that undoes the bell, not something that holds the bullet in place. The less crimp - including no crimp at all - is the best crimp.

Another thing to watch is bullet seating depth. Not sure if that's a factor here, but at some point in bullet seating, you can go past the point of the 'flat' of the bullet... the portion where the diameter remains constant. If your case mouth is aligning at a portion of the bullet where it's started to narrow, then you're going to have the same issues... The case mouth will be a smaller diameter than it should be, which will allow it to drive further into the chamber than it should (not headspace correctly).

 

[LiveLife]

Welcome to THR.

Edit: could one solutions be if i shorten the rounds to 1.13" OAL to fire them or is it better not to risk the extra pressure and stick to 1.14" or just toss them and cut my losses

9mm 115 gr FMJ/RN bullets have rather short bullet base that can benefit from being seated deeper in the case neck where case wall is thicker (which improves neck tension).

I have done 1.150" down to 1.110" comparison testing and shorter, deeper bullet seating depth improved accuracy. But in general 1.130"-1.135" OAL is what I use for multi-purpose range blasting ammo.

If I want to squeeze a little bit more accuracy, I will use 1.125"-1.130" OAL.

That's way too much crimp. All the taper "crimp" should do is remove the flare/bell ... More"crimp" isn't the way to fix issues.

Yes, there's way TOO MUCH crimp which can bulge the case neck below the crimp and is likely causing the problem. If you are shaving brass, you are using too much crimp.

As others already posted, you just need to return the flare back flat on the bullets.

I use .022" added to the diameter of the bullet for my taper crimp amount. So for .355" sized 9mm bullets, .377" should measure at the case mouth.

And since 9mm is semi-auto case that headspace on the case mouth, you want that sharp square of case mouth to mate with the chamber like shown below loaded using the same Lee 3 die set with seat/crimp performed on the same step.

BTW, here's a step-by-step reloading process you can reference - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-discussions.778197/page-10#post-11419509

 

[Jericho97]

Azrocks the plunk test failure was happening before this over crimp. It was when I had a minor crimp on it about 1/8-1/4 turn extra from making contact with the case. Originally would the issue been too much flare on the case mouth or would it of been possibly not enough from the sizing die?

 

[Jericho97]

Since yall are being extremely helpful on my lee resizing/depriming die the depriming screw up top will not move/is stuck where I couldnt loosen it or tighten it I've tried pliers and wrenches but nothing worked what would be a good solution to loosen it.

 

[LiveLife]

Originally would the issue been ... not enough from the sizing die?

To rule out insufficient resizing of brass, resize a batch of brass and "plunk test" to make sure they drop in the chamber freely with a "plonk" and fall out freely.

Then when your finished rounds do not pass the "plunk test", you can be sure it's not the resizing that's contacting the chamber wall.

Also, look closely at the bullet base for even bulging to demonstrate bullet wasn't tilted during seating. If you see one sided bulge, you may be tilting the bullet during seating and resulting in oval shaped case neck which can rub with chamber wall.

And then there's the taper crimp amount. Use .377" with .355" sized bullets and you should be fine.

Since yall are being extremely helpful on my lee resizing/depriming die the depriming screw up top will not move/is stuck where I couldnt loosen it or tighten it I've tried pliers and wrenches but nothing worked what would be a good solution to loosen it.

I use two box end wrenches and squeeze between my hands to loosen.