Need help 1907 Colt SAA

[LarryRF]

need help identifying gun

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Hello all, I'm in need of some help with a gun I have. It's a Colt SAA nickleplated, bone or stag grip. According to the serial number, it was made in 1907. It is chambered in .38 special. This is engraved on the barrel along with "Colt Single Action Army" The frame has the serial number engraved in 3 different spots, all match. There is the number "549" engraved on the inside of the loading gate. I guess my main question is was this gun, 1907 model year, ever offered in .38 special? I've seen newer versions from the 30's and 40's chambered in this round but I can find nothing about this 1907 version.

Now having said that, if this is not the original caliber, how does this affect the value. I was thinking of having it restored. If it is not the original caliber, would it be better to put the gun "right" so to speak by returning it to it's factory specs?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Larry

 

[Jim K]

Factory .38 Special SAAs are rare; I have never seen one. They recorded 82 standard frame in .38 Colt Special and 25 standard frame in .38 S&W Special. Per David M. Brown "The 36 Calibers of the Colt Single Action Army", there was a difference in the chamber, for reasons unknown. The guns were marked ".38 Special" in either case.

However, for many years, Numrich sold SA cylinders and barrels in .38 Special, and many SA's in other calibers, like .32-20, were converted to the newer caliber. (I traded one such gun even-up for an M1 rifle in the 1960's, and thought I did OK.)

While I doubt that your gun came from the factory in that caliber, the only way to be sure would be to spend (I think) $100 and get a Colt letter saying when and where it was shipped, and its configuration at that time.

Jim

 

[LarryRF]

Hi, thanks for the reply..So, there were a few chambered in .38 Colt and .38 S&W ? Is this for the 1907 model you are describing? I found the Colt site, it's $150 for a phone ID of the gun, they ship the cert. later... I think I'll give it a shot..My own feelings are this is a conversion of somekind...my interest is strictly for myself and my wifes curiosity...It was her fathers gun originally, when he died he left them all , about 15 different guns in all, to her. Now me She don't shoot..much...
If it's not an original gun, how would having it restored to Like new condition, rechambered in it's original configuration, affect the overall value of the gun? Again, I'm not looking to make a profit from it through a sale, just curious how it will affect the gun. I'd actually like to shoot it as I consider it a little piece of history...100 years old and all...Here's a couple pics of it.

ps, is there a difference between 38 colt and 38 s&w? rookie here...
Larry

 

[Ron James]

.38 Smith & Wesson and 38 smith & Wesson Special are not the same cartridge. Not as a rule interchangeable. .38 Colt special and S&W 38 Special are the same cartridge. The only difference is that the Colt Cartridge has a flat tip. Colt could not stand to to put the dreaded name of their chief competitors name on one of it's guns. As stated, Colt did chamber 25 Colt frames in .38 S&W Special. Because this is a rare cambering it adds a couple of zeros to the value Your best bet is to get a Colt factory letter. Then if it was a conversion ( which I doubt ) then worry about restoring it to the original cambering. Besides, with out the factory letter you have no ideal of what the original cambering was. BTW, I believe you asked the same question on another forum and was told more or less the same thing, if you really have such a firearm, get a factory letter and have it appraised.

 

[Jim K]

Just to end (or add to) the confusion, there are three cartridges involved here. .38 Colt (which was made in Short and Long versions), .38 S&W, and .38 Colt Special/.38 S&W Special, which, as Ron says, are the same cartridge, now just called the .38 Special.

The .38 Colt (.38 Short Colt and .38 Long Colt) is the same case diameter as the .38 Special and can be fired in a .38 Special chamber. The .38 S&W has a larger diameter case and usually will not fit into a chamber made for the smaller diameter rounds.

HTH

Jim

 

[LarryRF]

Hi all, thanks again for the replies...Much appreciated.

Ron, this is the first time I've asked on this or any other forum about this gun...it's been stored in our attic for 4-5 years and we just took it out at the beginning of the week...maybe confusing me with someone else? I do thank you for the great info though...I'm calling Colt right now

Thanks, larry

 

[rcmodel]

it's been stored in our attic for 4-5 years

You had a 1907 Colt SAA stored in your attic??

YIKES!

rcmodel

 

[LarryRF]

uh...didn't know what it was until the wife told me it was up there She said it was a couple of old guns

Also found an old winchester from 1909...

Larry

 

[Ron James]

Larry, my mistake. About two weeks ago, Some named Mark posted on the Numrich board about the value of a First Generation Colt chambered in 38 Special. Seeing how only 25 were made it was just a heck of a coincidence. Larry, the real need for the letter is this. If your Colt is original, depending on the condition, it cold be worth 5 to 15 thousand dollars.

 

[LarryRF]

LOL...I hope it's real.

Again, thanks for the great info. I called Colt yesterday afternoon and left a message that i wanted to get this started. I'll be sure to keep you all informed.

Larry

 

[LarryRF]

"Update"

Ok, here's what I found out from Colt. It's originally a .38-40 that must have been re-chambered/re-barreled to it's present .38 special configuration. They also said that the gun was originally blued steel, not the nickle it is now. ALso, it came with black grips, not the stag ones shown.

So, my question is what to do now?

Should I leave the gun as is?

Should I have the gun restored to a shootable .38 special?

Should I have the gun restored to .38-40?

My own thoughts are to have the gun restored to shooting condition, removing the nickle and having it re-blued.

Is this possible? To have the nickle removed?

I noticed a lot of play in the cylinder fore to aft...I'd imagine this isn't normal and would need repair.

There is no rust on the gun.

If I were to restore it, should I use a private gunsmith or send it back to Colt?

Any advice, suggestions, or names of places that do this kind of work would be appreciated.



Thanks all, Larry

 

[rcmodel]

Doug Turnbull for a total factory matching case-hardened re-finish.
http://www.turnbullrestoration.com/

Eddie Janis for a perfectly executed tune-up.
http://www.peacemakerspecialists.com/smithing.html

Neither is cheap, but nobody, including colt, is better.

rcmodel

 

[Old Fuff]

Oh Darn!!!

Always late to the party... :banghead:

Colt didn't introduce the .38 Special chambering in the Single Action Army until 1930. On the other hand the .38 Colt (Long and Short) was offered as early as 1886.

You can roughly identify when a barrel was made by how it is marked - on either the side or top of the barrel. Knowing exactly how the barrels are marked v. manufacturing dates can save a lot of letter and phone call money going to the Colt factory. Whithout knowing the length of the barrel I can't be more pecise. Front sight configuration is useful too. On early barrels the sight is tapered to a knife edge. On later ones the blade is thicker with little or no taper.

 

[Jim Watson]

Who left it in the attic, you think?
If Grandpa had his gun nickel plated, with faux stag handles, and converted to a more "modern" caliber, I would be inclined to leave it alone except for correcting the cylinder "end shake" and any other adjustment and repair that turned up. After all, Grandpa LIKED a nickel gun and he didn't want to pay the price of .38-40 ammo. You might not either.

Looking at Eddie Janis' site (And I have had a gun worked on by him, just an action job on a 3rd gen, but well done.) a nickel strip, case harden frame, blue the rest, would be $800 alone. A .38-40 barrel and cylinder would run the cost way up beyond that with extra charges for remarking in 1907 style.

 

[Old Fuff]

Correcting cylinder end shake is inexpensive and easy. Brownells sell a thin washer (called a "bearing"), which you place in the front of the cylinder after removing the base pin bushing. Put the bushing back, reassemble the cylinder back into the frame, and you're done.

However this may leave you with an excessive cylinder/barrel gap. Fixing that requires setting back the barrel, and the services of a qualified and experienced gunsmith who has the right equipment.

www.brownells.com

 

[Jim K]

The best advice I can give you is to do nothing except to put the gun in shooting condition. If you try to "restore" it, you will end up with a gun that is not collectible any more than it was before and it will cost a pile.

Regardless of what some folks write, it is very rarely cost effective to pay big bucks to restore an older gun unless it is very uncommon. Any collector can easily spot the restoration, and any claim that it is original will make the seller look deceitful. (Most of the folks on here who mention Turnbull have not checked his prices lately.) I don't think Colt will do that work any more or if they even have the parts.

It is .38 Special, a fine and easily obtainable cartridge. Shoot it and enjoy it.

BTW, converting .38-40 to .38 Special required a new barrel and cylinder, since the .38-40 is really a .40 caliber, where the .38 Special is really .357.

Jim