Need help/advice with a .45-90

[redneck2]

I have a Browning BPCR Hi-Wall in .45-90 that's never been fired. Looking to change that this summer. I have brass and reload so that's no problem

My dilemma is what powder to use to start. I have the choice of smokeless, black, or a BP substitute. I know that the most "logical" would be smokeless, but it seems a shame to have a 90 grain capacity and only use 1/2 of it (Water's "Pet Loads" lists charges in the 50 grain range).

Black actually probably would give the best performance and would be traditional, but my concern is corrosion in the receiver and action areas that are hard to get to for cleaning. That said, it's tough to beat the smell of BP in the morning....

I've heard mixed reviews on BP substitutes, but Triple 7 seems to be the product of choice at this point. No corrosion but supposedly duplicates BP performance, but I don't know if this holds true with cartridges.

Anybody have experience with this????

 

[iamkris]

Only "experience" I have is my recently acquired Sharps (Pedersoli) in .45-70. I have spnt the early spring working through some load development in smokeless. That was what I had on hand and what I was most comfortable with. I've shot some blackpowder in my past but don't have extensive experieince with it.

I now have the components to start shooting BP. Seems like the right thng to do with a firearm and cartridge that were designed for it. I've heard nothing but good things about 777 or Pyrodex. Don't know about Clearshot and some of the others. I've heard of people even using the pellets in a cartridge. That seems odd to me.

The only consideration you might want to ponder is that if you have no experience with BP and maybe a little less than average patience, you may want to go with substitute since you'll have a little eaiser clean up with it.

 

[Jim Watson]

A couple of my friends dragged me kicking and screaming into the wonderful world of BPCR about this time last year. It is a blast. I may never sully my .38-55 with nitro again. At least not after my stock of hard lubed hardcast bullets is shot up; and I am going to melt most of them down because they cannot compete with what I now know how to cast.

Shoot black. It is a bit more work than dumping in a little nitro but you have complete control of what is going on. If you can just figure it out. Cleaning is not the chore it is often represented as. A single shot rifle is easier to clean from a proper black powder load than to get really clean after smokeless. My 1900 vintage Winchester Single Shot ("Highwall") is at no risk from corrosion and neither are the many vintage and custom rifles in use. If treated right, and it is not that much trouble.

Lots of information at
http://www.bpcr.net/

The fake powders are suitable mostly for stainless steel and plastic loophole shooters for killing off excess does. I shot some 777 in .44-40 and it is ok if you just want to make smoke at a Cowboy shoot but it does not give the accuracy of real black. There are a few folks getting decent accuracy out of Pyrodex, but they are few and far between. But I speak of serious target accuracy at the ranges your Browning is made for. Metallic Silhouettes at 200 - 500 meters, midrange target at 200 - 600 yards, and long range at 800, 900, 1000 yards and beyond.

To do that you have to have good bullets. That usually means casting your own with a good mold, known alloy lead, and proper black powder bullet lube. There are some commercial casters, Classic Bullets for one, but I don't know how good they really are. They say the owners shoot matches with the same bullets they sell. OK. But they are not cheap. I think the $8.00 a 50 for match select is in addition to $18 for the basic bullets.
http://www.classicbullets.com
There are some others that a search will bring up, but I don't know anything at all about them.

 

[redneck2]

Jim....

My major concern is corrosion in the internals of the trigger and lock area. Do you disassemble to clean or isn't it really a problem???

I've shot black and Pyrodex in my Knight and other front stuffers for 25 years. Normal routine after shooting is to take the action apart and hose out the trigger assembly with solvent.

I have a good load for my Marlin 1895 using Varget. I just see this big 'ole 90 grain case and it seems like it ought to be full of powder.

And, the thought of pulling the trigger, a big cloud of smoke, and the gong ringing at 1,000 yards a few seconds later gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling.

I've checked out the BPCR site but there isn't much action there. Maybe I'll go back, register, and post for a response. Thanks

 

[Jim Watson]

Fouling and corrosion in the action seem not to be a problem and frequent disassembly is not required. Which is a good thing, none of these old sporting rifles is particularly easy to take apart. A '74 Sharps is, being a military design, but I don't think it is really necessary. Enough Ballistol gets in the works to protect them pretty well. One of our guys got some rust on his breechblock but I think he just got careless in the cleaning.

Here is what I told one guy on another list:

"A blow tube inserted to the chamber throat and exhaled through
four or five times after each shot keeps fouling soft and allows
shooting all day without cleaning. Cleaning is very simple and
quick for a single shot rifle. Just blow through it when done,
push a patch through to remove the worst of powder and lube
residue. Then wipe out with two or three patches wet with
Windex with vinegar, wipe off the muzzle where there should be a
visible lube star at the rifling grooves, wipe off the soot and
fouling anywhere else seen. Then a couple of dry patches and
one oiled with Ballistol, Kroil or any of a number of lubes and
you are done. I reclean at home, but that does not take long
either. It is really easier than scrubbing out nitro fouling
and jacket metal from a .30-06."

When I reclean at home I brush and patch with M-Pro 7 and wipe out all the nooks and crannies I can get at with rag and Q-tip, then reoil with Ballistol. Still not a major project.

Question: Is your Browning BPCR .45-90 one of the Creedmoor variants with 34 inch barrel? If so, windgauge or plain front sight?

There is a e-mail list at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Shooting-BPCR/
and a board on MSN
http://groups.msn.com/BPCR/messages.msnw

Shiloh Sharps has/had the best board after Shooters.com folded up but they have been off the air for a week or more and nobody knows when or if it will be back.

 

[Trapdoor_1875]

redneck2,

I use 777 FFg in a replica 1863 Zouave .58 rifled musket, .45-70 replica Trapdoor, Marlin 1895SS .45-70 and a Marlin 336 CB .38-55.

Get the smoke but not the sulphur smell. Use less by volume than BP and get more muzzle velocity. I have had good experience with accuracy (out to 2 hundred yards).

YMMV

Carl

 

[redneck2]

the rifle is a 34" with the flip up vernier rear sight with 3 different discs and the "mailbox" spirit level front sight with interchangeable inserts. Wood is absolutely beautiful. Barrel is 1/2 round, 1/2 octagon Douglas air gauged. Best thing is, a local dealer ordered it for a guy that didn't take it, so I got it for $100 under dealer cost.

I talked to the Browning people. They said it'll take up to 60,000 psi (made the same as the .300 Win Mag barrels)

I looked in some of my books. The round is a dead ringer for a .458 Win Mag, without the belt. Guess I could load it with 458 data but that seems a little severe for killing paper, and, I'm thinkin' that being on the back end would be a lot less fun.

FWIW...found a local dealer today that handles Goex so I got a pound of FFg. Also have a friend that has and extra pound of Triple 7 in FFg so I guess I'm gonna try both.

Next on the agenda is a call to someone to get some .446 pure lead bullets for paper patching.

Thanks for the replies

 

[Jim Watson]

You have a jewel.
According to my source, Browning only made 300 of the 34" Creedmores for the American market. All but 16 of those had windage adjustable FRONT sights.
I hope that doesn't make you put it up to be worth more when you are dead and gone. It is made to be shot, but it is rather unusual, most of them are 30".

I would not try to make an elephant gun out of it. The barrel and breech might be rated for 60 kpsi, but who knows about the brass?

Posted over on the MSN board:

http://groups.msn.com/bpcr/general....LastModified=4675450506450996696&all_topics=1

As many of you know I've spent considerable time researching the Browning BPCRs with the intentions of publishing a book on the subject. Now and then I've posted some details of my findings on this and other talk forums including the number of rifles made as reported to me by Browning. Due to various reasons, one being that the actual data resides in Miroku's archives in Japan, Browning USA only provided production estimates of the .45-70 and .40-65 rifles. .45-90 Creedmore rifle production was based on the number of barrels provided by Badger. More recently my research has called into question the reported number of Creedmores made, which was 300 with the adjustable front sight and 16 with a fixed front sight, totaling 316. Therefore I requested and Browning agreed to have Miroku check their Creedmore production records. I was surprised by the data. Here's what they found.

There were only 300 rifles made for the US market, which includes the 16 with fixed front sights. This became obvious though my research and was the main reason I requested a check of Miroku's archives to verify my data. The serial numbers of these are 13001NP371 to 13300NP371

What caught me by surprise was the fact that a separate serial numbered batch of
30 rifles was produced for the European market. Except for the serial numbers these are identical to the US rifles with adjustable front sights. The serial numbers of these are 15201NP371 to 15230NP371.

So there you have it. A total of 300 rifles were made for the US market and 30 rifles were made for the European market. By the way, I realize my incorrect spelling of Creedmoor irritates some of you traditional rifle owners, but as long as I'm referring to or discussing the Browning rifles I will use Browning's spelling. I hope you Browning Creedmore owners found this interesting.

 

[redneck2]

Guess maybe I need to follow up. You got me nervous after the comment about the 30" vs 34" barrel. Since it's way longer than the 28" barrel on my 870, I assumed it was 34"...I was right

SN is 13050NP371. Barrel is marked "Black powder only", which I assumed was a throwback to the original. Then again, if it was original there wouldn't be a reference to smokeless.

It has cut checkering and beautiful figure in the wood. As I said, I had talked to the guys at Browning. I thought he said it was Douglas barrel, but I could very well be wrong. I've slept since then. I do remember that it was supposed to be air-gauged, or the equivalent...at least it was supposed to be one of the very best of match grade.

I have a digital Sony camera but am technologically challenged. If someone could give me a "step-by-step" to add the pix to the board here I'd be happy to show it to you

This is great...thanks for the help

 

[Gewehr98]

Keep going with the FFg.

It's not the hassle people make it out to be, and you would be surprised at the kind of accuracy you can get with cast bullets and a case full of the charcoal mix.

My favorite .45-70 target loads are BP, I even made a drop tube out of an old aluminum ski pole.

 

[Jim Watson]

It is marked "black powder only' because .45-90 is not a current cartridge with SAAMI specifications. Lawyer lingo. It is the same gun, same action, same barrel, as in .45-70 which will take anything you can buy or load from published data. But why push it? Top accuracy in these calibers is not usually at top speed. A .45-90 will shoot a 500+ grain bullet at 1300 fps or better and is plenty for 1000 yards on out to whatever you want to try.

Properly loaded, these guns are commonly just over 1 MOA shooters. Just over, on the average, because there have been very few of the Pedersoli MOA challenge plaques for four consecutive minute of angle targets passed out.