Need help with 1911 feeding
- Thread starter Okiecruffler
- Start date
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1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
re:
Okie spake:
>I'm not sure if I should be offended or not at the hint that I might be a knuckle dragging dremel weilding troll.<
******************************
Never insinuated anything of the sort, Okie...just like I never insinuated that
I've had to repair any of Murray's work. Sorry that's the way that ya'll took it.
The thing with internet forums is that we don't know what anybody's level of experience is, and we have to go on the premise that any given poster is starting from square one...until we have the whole story. Many times, I've seen nice pistols that had been butchered after the owner was told:
"Do a ramp and throat job on it and it'll be fine!" Problem is....that neither the
mentor nor the student knew what was involved in the work...nor of the pitfalls and damage that often result from divin' in head-first without prior experience and/or proper instruction. Stated more simply...The duffer often reckons that "If a little is good, then a lot must be gooder" and forges ahead, only to find that the ramp/throat/breechface wasn't his problem at all...but now he's got a
REAL problem.
Very few modern 1911-pattern pistols need anything at all in the way of ramp and throat work...and even when they do, it's usually minimal. Mirror polishing is pretty, but unnecessary...and is generally best done with fine arasive paper or cloth on a fingertip rather than at 30,000 rpms. Even most of the older GI and commercial pistols will do pretty well without being touched. I've got several original USGI pistols dating from 1916 to 1945
that'll run like a raped ape with about anything that you can throw at'em, including lead SWC reloads....and from the old "Hardball Only" magazines.
So...The caveat stands. Instead of immediately assuming that the gun needs to be modified in order to be reliable...make sure that it's not just somethin' simple...because it usually is.
Luck to ya!
Okie spake:
>I'm not sure if I should be offended or not at the hint that I might be a knuckle dragging dremel weilding troll.<
******************************
Never insinuated anything of the sort, Okie...just like I never insinuated that
I've had to repair any of Murray's work. Sorry that's the way that ya'll took it.
The thing with internet forums is that we don't know what anybody's level of experience is, and we have to go on the premise that any given poster is starting from square one...until we have the whole story. Many times, I've seen nice pistols that had been butchered after the owner was told:
"Do a ramp and throat job on it and it'll be fine!" Problem is....that neither the
mentor nor the student knew what was involved in the work...nor of the pitfalls and damage that often result from divin' in head-first without prior experience and/or proper instruction. Stated more simply...The duffer often reckons that "If a little is good, then a lot must be gooder" and forges ahead, only to find that the ramp/throat/breechface wasn't his problem at all...but now he's got a
REAL problem.
Very few modern 1911-pattern pistols need anything at all in the way of ramp and throat work...and even when they do, it's usually minimal. Mirror polishing is pretty, but unnecessary...and is generally best done with fine arasive paper or cloth on a fingertip rather than at 30,000 rpms. Even most of the older GI and commercial pistols will do pretty well without being touched. I've got several original USGI pistols dating from 1916 to 1945
that'll run like a raped ape with about anything that you can throw at'em, including lead SWC reloads....and from the old "Hardball Only" magazines.
So...The caveat stands. Instead of immediately assuming that the gun needs to be modified in order to be reliable...make sure that it's not just somethin' simple...because it usually is.
Luck to ya!
I didn’t think you were a “knuckle dragging dremel wielding troll,” and for that matter I didn’t think that Murrays was either. But there is a problem in that some who don’t understand the pistol get an idea that a little cosmetic polishing here and there will solve all and any problems. “Fluff & Buff” has become a popular concept.
It seldom works that way, and when it doesn’t the answer is to do more of the same – sometimes a lot more… Every surface must be worked on until it looks like it was chrome plated – or better.
That’s when too much material can get removed, and when the pistol still won’t work the frustrated owner looks up someone like Tuner or I, and pleads with us to fix it.
But by then some major component, such as the frame, barrel or slide may be beyond fixing, and it’s no fun telling someone that.
So with us, the word “polish” pushes a hot button, and we react like a fireman when he hears the alarm bell go off.
And while the person who is making a post may have their head screwed on right, we have no idea who may be following along that doesn’t. That’s why Tuner is very, very careful to go into great detail when he offers any advice, and anything that involves removing metal is described in exact language and specific amounts. Simply saying, “polish the (whatever)” isn’t enough because it leaves too much room for disaster.
The 1911 platform works very well when the parts are made from the correct materials, and correctly fitted. As Tuner has repeatedly pointed out, functional problems are seldom caused because something isn’t polished enough, but rather because of “gamer” modified magazines, substandard or misfit extractors and out-of-spec ammunition. Another area of concern are some who think a pick-um-up truck suspension spring is a perfect substitute for the regular 16-pound recoil spring.
This was the point that both of us were try to make, not because we wanted to antagonize anyone, but to make the very important point that depending on how it’s done, internal polishing can cause more problems then it cures.
The Old Fuff will now withdraw… He’s made enough trouble on this thread…
Okiecruffler
Member
My apologies, I was just kinda poking fun at you guys and I think it was taken the wrong way. Problem with this internet is you can't tell when a fella is smiling.
I've been on this board for quite a while now and I know which guys are for real and which guys are blowhards. I've always counted you 2 as the real thing and I think most people who've been around this block would agree. But now that we all know we're just funnun, I'll tell you about my first range trip with the Charles Daly 1911.
Before I left this morning I gave the ramp and the chamber a couple of kisses with my finest grit paper wrapped around a dowel rod. I had cleaned it real good last night and put a few drops of oil on the rubbing parts.
Started out with the cheapo Triple K mag and some winchester hard ball. Ran three mags full with no problem, then the mag wouldn't raise the slide stop on the last round. So I switched to the 2 McGar 8 rds that came with the pistol. Ran the remainder of the hardball with no problems. Then I had a box of Independance Hard ball. Had a few that failed to completely chamber and I had to do a quick thumb push, but other than that no problems. That's 100 rds and I'm not cussing yet. So I had a box of winchester white box jhp's. Rotated thru all three mags without a hitch except the triple K only locks the slide back about half the time. Things are looking good. So I try the dreaded Gold dots that wouldn't feed at home, and the first round nose dives. But that was with the 7 rd mag. Switched to just the Mcgars and they fed just fine with only one shot failing to go completely into battery and requiring a thumb assist. Things were going so well I thought I'd try some of my cast SWC reloads. Well, let's not talk about that.
All in all it's a pretty accurate pistol keeping everything around 4 inches at 15yrds. That's me shooting an unfamiliar gun offhand with a 45mph wind in my face. I'm sure it will get better with time. In time I may even decide I like the 1911.
Thanks for all the help, and I hope I didn't bend anyone's nose to far out of shape.
I've been on this board for quite a while now and I know which guys are for real and which guys are blowhards. I've always counted you 2 as the real thing and I think most people who've been around this block would agree. But now that we all know we're just funnun, I'll tell you about my first range trip with the Charles Daly 1911.
Before I left this morning I gave the ramp and the chamber a couple of kisses with my finest grit paper wrapped around a dowel rod. I had cleaned it real good last night and put a few drops of oil on the rubbing parts.
Started out with the cheapo Triple K mag and some winchester hard ball. Ran three mags full with no problem, then the mag wouldn't raise the slide stop on the last round. So I switched to the 2 McGar 8 rds that came with the pistol. Ran the remainder of the hardball with no problems. Then I had a box of Independance Hard ball. Had a few that failed to completely chamber and I had to do a quick thumb push, but other than that no problems. That's 100 rds and I'm not cussing yet. So I had a box of winchester white box jhp's. Rotated thru all three mags without a hitch except the triple K only locks the slide back about half the time. Things are looking good. So I try the dreaded Gold dots that wouldn't feed at home, and the first round nose dives. But that was with the 7 rd mag. Switched to just the Mcgars and they fed just fine with only one shot failing to go completely into battery and requiring a thumb assist. Things were going so well I thought I'd try some of my cast SWC reloads. Well, let's not talk about that.
All in all it's a pretty accurate pistol keeping everything around 4 inches at 15yrds. That's me shooting an unfamiliar gun offhand with a 45mph wind in my face. I'm sure it will get better with time. In time I may even decide I like the 1911.
Thanks for all the help, and I hope I didn't bend anyone's nose to far out of shape.
45crittergitter
Member
Smiling =
Tuner is a gem let's all give him one.
Tuner is a gem let's all give him one.
RogersPrecision
Member
Okie,
You experienced 5 or so malfunctions in 100rds after performing a 'fuff and bluff' and you're OK with that?
I'd suggest packing that pup over to Tuner's!
You experienced 5 or so malfunctions in 100rds after performing a 'fuff and bluff' and you're OK with that?
I'd suggest packing that pup over to Tuner's!
Okiecruffler
Member
Actually I had 4 FTF's in 175rds. And yes I'm okay with that from a new gun out of the box with only the most basic tune up performed. I've reread and I don't see anything in my post about being finished working on this pistol. Maybe I missed it somewhere.
RogersPrecision
Member
4 FTF's in 175 rds does not define a pistol......I'd choose a rock.
Okiecruffler
Member
Thank you for your suggestion, now if I may make one of my own. If you chose a rock you might want to start with the one between your ears.
I wonder why I stopped bothering with this board.
Big thanks to 1911Tuner and Old Fuff. You are a couple of the original guys who once made this board special. Wish you continued success, but I think I'll go back to more civil climes.
I wonder why I stopped bothering with this board.
Big thanks to 1911Tuner and Old Fuff. You are a couple of the original guys who once made this board special. Wish you continued success, but I think I'll go back to more civil climes.
RogersPrecision
Member
Okie,
Sorry I offended you. I do not post here much. I mostly deal with folks that carry a 1911 for serious reasons.
I will glady refrain from comments on any of your further posts.
Sorry I offended you. I do not post here much. I mostly deal with folks that carry a 1911 for serious reasons.
I will glady refrain from comments on any of your further posts.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Burps
Okie, My nose is good to go, bro!
MecGar magazines that I've seen have ample spring tension, so we can probably rule that out.
Check the fired cases for a crescent-shaped mark about an eighth-inch below the case mouth. Indicates excessive stem bind or 3-point jam.
If you can duplicate the burp in hand-cycling, remove the extractor and see if it reduces or cures the problem.
On the failure to lock the slide...Lay the barrel in the frame and insert the slidestop pin through the link with the arm hanging vertically. Push the barrel down and back firmly and see if the slidestop swings free. If the barrel's rearward momentum is being stopped by the link and putting the pin in a bind, it may be a player in the malfunction. If it passes that test, it's probably the magazine spring or the follower geometry.
Extractor tension, chamber condition/taper, Barrel riding the link, excessive
sear spring tension on the disconnect, tight or binding slide travel due to frame rail fit are the next things to check. Hand-cycle the slide and point the gun down at a 45 degree angle...guide the slide to battery slowly and take note of any hitch that may occur during the final quarter-inch or so.
Indicates early barrel linkup/lockup timing into the slide that you won't notice cycling the gun normally, but will occur when feeding.
Chuck...You're bad! He's just yankin' your chain a little Okie.
Where'd Murray go?
Okie, My nose is good to go, bro!
MecGar magazines that I've seen have ample spring tension, so we can probably rule that out.
Check the fired cases for a crescent-shaped mark about an eighth-inch below the case mouth. Indicates excessive stem bind or 3-point jam.
If you can duplicate the burp in hand-cycling, remove the extractor and see if it reduces or cures the problem.
On the failure to lock the slide...Lay the barrel in the frame and insert the slidestop pin through the link with the arm hanging vertically. Push the barrel down and back firmly and see if the slidestop swings free. If the barrel's rearward momentum is being stopped by the link and putting the pin in a bind, it may be a player in the malfunction. If it passes that test, it's probably the magazine spring or the follower geometry.
Extractor tension, chamber condition/taper, Barrel riding the link, excessive
sear spring tension on the disconnect, tight or binding slide travel due to frame rail fit are the next things to check. Hand-cycle the slide and point the gun down at a 45 degree angle...guide the slide to battery slowly and take note of any hitch that may occur during the final quarter-inch or so.
Indicates early barrel linkup/lockup timing into the slide that you won't notice cycling the gun normally, but will occur when feeding.
Chuck...You're bad!
He's just yankin' your chain a little Okie.Where'd Murray go?
Darkness
Member
Ah, the good ole Charles Daly
Has anyone ever had a good first experience with these?
Several years ago I bought a brand new CD commander that would fail to feed at least once out of every magazine. I eventually got my money back from the dealer and picked up something else.
Well, dummy me, I thought maybe it was a fluke with that one pistol, and about 8 months ago picked up a CD compact to use as a carry pistol. Well, I can count on a FTF at least once every two mags. I had someone look at the extractor tension, I tried different magazines with varying success (Colt mags seemed to FTF less than the MG). I have been eyeing that feed ramp. I have a new 'rotary tool' sitting on my toolbox in the garage.
The problem is not always the same, though. Sometimes I will get a stove-pipe jam, and others I will get a round stuck trying to feed from the magazine. It is pretty much limited to only those two, though.
I replaced the recoil spring, since I could easily compress it with two fingers, figuring it must have been worn out. I put in a Wolff 22# spring and replaced the firing pin spring as well. Fed slightly better, and now stove-pipes with authority!
I finally took it completely apart and cleaned/re-lubed everything, and hope to get it out to the range to see if that helps. But, I'm not going to hold my breath.
Oh, and I am using regular 6 round mags.
It is a nice gun with a good feel to it, and I would hate to have to trade it in on a High-Point
Is this really something common to the CDs? Oh, and since I am not the original buyer, no warranty work for me. Someone suggested trying Wilson Combat mags, but I already have 6 mags for the darn thing now, so am not too keen on spending even more if it will be a losing battle.
Opinions?
Has anyone ever had a good first experience with these?
Several years ago I bought a brand new CD commander that would fail to feed at least once out of every magazine. I eventually got my money back from the dealer and picked up something else.
Well, dummy me, I thought maybe it was a fluke with that one pistol, and about 8 months ago picked up a CD compact to use as a carry pistol. Well, I can count on a FTF at least once every two mags. I had someone look at the extractor tension, I tried different magazines with varying success (Colt mags seemed to FTF less than the MG). I have been eyeing that feed ramp. I have a new 'rotary tool' sitting on my toolbox in the garage.
The problem is not always the same, though. Sometimes I will get a stove-pipe jam, and others I will get a round stuck trying to feed from the magazine. It is pretty much limited to only those two, though.
I replaced the recoil spring, since I could easily compress it with two fingers, figuring it must have been worn out. I put in a Wolff 22# spring and replaced the firing pin spring as well. Fed slightly better, and now stove-pipes with authority!
I finally took it completely apart and cleaned/re-lubed everything, and hope to get it out to the range to see if that helps. But, I'm not going to hold my breath.
Oh, and I am using regular 6 round mags.
It is a nice gun with a good feel to it, and I would hate to have to trade it in on a High-Point
Is this really something common to the CDs? Oh, and since I am not the original buyer, no warranty work for me. Someone suggested trying Wilson Combat mags, but I already have 6 mags for the darn thing now, so am not too keen on spending even more if it will be a losing battle.
Opinions?
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Daly
Howdy Darkness,
First off, we need to narrow things down a little.
Failure to feed and failure to go to/return to battery aren't the same malfunction. If the round gets into the chamber, even a little...it fed...and the problem then becomes a failure to return to battery. Failure to feed means that it doesn't get to the chamber.
Since your pistol is a chopped variant...and you're using standard 6-round mags...goodonya. (Dimpled follower?) That's only half the battle though. The springs have to be up to snuff. Standard Wolff 11-pound mag springs will
work in the magazines as long as they have the standard design followers.
Mec-Gar followers need not apply. The slide speeds on the shorties mean that the magazine timing is more critical.
Stovepipe...Failure to eject or failure to feed? A stovepiped failure to feed with a live round standing straight up in the port caught between the slide and barrel hood is called a Bolt Over Base FTF...and is a magazine timing problem. Simply put, the slide just outruns the round coming to feed position
and catches it in the extractor groove instead of at the rear of the rim. This usually occurs on the last round.
Stovepipe failure to eject is usually either due to failure of the slide to go full travel, or the case is getting into a bind with the tip of the extractor hook and ejector, and can't release. Overly-heavy recoil springs and incorrect extractor geometry are the culprits. Insufficient extractor tension can be a factor, but that normally doesn't involve a true stovepipe.
Okie! Many thanks for the good words. Fuff really needs'em. If ya don't talk sweet to him, he crawls back in his cave and pouts for days!
Can't get him to do nuttin'.
Howdy Darkness,
First off, we need to narrow things down a little.
Failure to feed and failure to go to/return to battery aren't the same malfunction. If the round gets into the chamber, even a little...it fed...and the problem then becomes a failure to return to battery. Failure to feed means that it doesn't get to the chamber.
Since your pistol is a chopped variant...and you're using standard 6-round mags...goodonya. (Dimpled follower?) That's only half the battle though. The springs have to be up to snuff. Standard Wolff 11-pound mag springs will
work in the magazines as long as they have the standard design followers.
Mec-Gar followers need not apply. The slide speeds on the shorties mean that the magazine timing is more critical.
Stovepipe...Failure to eject or failure to feed? A stovepiped failure to feed with a live round standing straight up in the port caught between the slide and barrel hood is called a Bolt Over Base FTF...and is a magazine timing problem. Simply put, the slide just outruns the round coming to feed position
and catches it in the extractor groove instead of at the rear of the rim. This usually occurs on the last round.
Stovepipe failure to eject is usually either due to failure of the slide to go full travel, or the case is getting into a bind with the tip of the extractor hook and ejector, and can't release. Overly-heavy recoil springs and incorrect extractor geometry are the culprits. Insufficient extractor tension can be a factor, but that normally doesn't involve a true stovepipe.
Okie! Many thanks for the good words. Fuff really needs'em. If ya don't talk sweet to him, he crawls back in his cave and pouts for days!
Can't get him to do nuttin'.
Darkness
Member
Thanks, Tuner.
The colt mags I am using are dimpled, though one is a bit worn, it looks like.
The stovepipe comes in as a failure to eject. When this occurs, it sits down in the ejection port enough that it prevents the following round from being stripped from the mag, if that makes sense. Kind of like the empty case simply rotated when it got pulled back. It's not the type of stovepipe where the slide mashed the casing up against the frame.
As far as the failure to feed, I think it is, the next round is resting its nose on the feed ramp, having made it maybe as far as 1/4 out of the mag.
Doesn't happen all the time, and I am using FMJ ammo. Problem is, I can't just run out and get another pistol, since my son is just now turning 2 on Thursday, and I have been getting the money-saving speech from the wife. Gotta keep the home-life pleasant. But damn, as a carry piece, I am definitely less than 100% confident in my weapon.
Not trying to hijack the thread. Just thought I would continue with the idea of CD failures.
The colt mags I am using are dimpled, though one is a bit worn, it looks like.
The stovepipe comes in as a failure to eject. When this occurs, it sits down in the ejection port enough that it prevents the following round from being stripped from the mag, if that makes sense. Kind of like the empty case simply rotated when it got pulled back. It's not the type of stovepipe where the slide mashed the casing up against the frame.
As far as the failure to feed, I think it is, the next round is resting its nose on the feed ramp, having made it maybe as far as 1/4 out of the mag.
Doesn't happen all the time, and I am using FMJ ammo. Problem is, I can't just run out and get another pistol, since my son is just now turning 2 on Thursday, and I have been getting the money-saving speech from the wife. Gotta keep the home-life pleasant. But damn, as a carry piece, I am definitely less than 100% confident in my weapon.
Not trying to hijack the thread. Just thought I would continue with the idea of CD failures.
RogersPrecision
Member
Ay'ay'Aie!!!!
Here we go.....
Cd's and RIA's and auto-ordnances...yes, not ordinance,
are simply put 'crap guns'.
Buy a chevy vega or a yugo......to each his own.
Some of us accept a failure rate of 5 per hundred. Some don't.
If I sound 'elitist' well, perhaps I am.
I guarantee, none of them 'old guns' that fuff and tuner value so highly, were made in the philipines.
Here we go.....
Cd's and RIA's and auto-ordnances...yes, not ordinance,
are simply put 'crap guns'.
Buy a chevy vega or a yugo......to each his own.
Some of us accept a failure rate of 5 per hundred. Some don't.
If I sound 'elitist' well, perhaps I am.
I guarantee, none of them 'old guns' that fuff and tuner value so highly, were made in the philipines.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Daly Burps
Not taken as a hijack...It's on topic, after all.
Okay...Case "rolls" back and stays in the port. Extractor hook depth may be
pinching the rim between it and the extended ejector. Depth should be about .032-.036 inch. Shorter often causes the hook to slip the rim...longer sometimes binds the rim with the ejector as it twists and tries to release.
Best educated guess is short-cycle though...Too much recoil spring.
On the failure to feed/stopping on the ramp...If the gun has the standard
barrel/frame design, (Not an integral ramped barrel) Lay the barrel in the frame and push if down and back firmly. The lower edge of the barrel throat.(ramp) should sit slightly forward of the top corner of the frame ramp/bed area. About a 32nd inch (.0325) is good. It can be more, but not less.
Though many guns do okay with the barrel throat flush with the top of the ramp, it can and does cause problems in most.
Check for a sharp corner on the bottom of the extractor hook, and for signs of
contact in the extractor groove. If the corner digs in as the round strips, it puts things in a bind. Relieve the bind by breaking the corner on a stone with a swiping motion to form a radius. Check for a sharp corner on the bottom wall of the extractor, where the rim first engages it. Lightly bevel that area with a square needle file with light cutting pressure to keep it smooth. Polish with fine paper on a flat, hard tool. Easy does it. Too much bevel, and you lose contact area with the rim and wall.
If the barrel throat/ramp has too steep of an angle, it can cause a hangup there. This is the place where you get into altering the barrel throat. Careful
as you go here. Best done with a scrape if you have to work freehand. Avoid a Dremel and a grinding wheel. You can go too far too quickly to correct the mistake. Decreasing the angle sets the top of the ramp deeper into the chamber...which causes reduced case head support. No way around that, but you can get away with a little as long as headspace is good.
Check for a sharp corner at the top of the barrel throat and break it LIGHTLY
with a scrape...Smooth it up with fine paper. BUT...before you start cutting and scraping, try good mag springs. Weak springs don't give the feeding round a good boost under the extractor, and the slide has to overcome the
angle in order to break the round over to horizontal during the final approach into the chamber. When the round reaches the release point in the magazine...where the feed lips flare out...the rim should be well under the extractor hook.
Not taken as a hijack...It's on topic, after all.
Okay...Case "rolls" back and stays in the port. Extractor hook depth may be
pinching the rim between it and the extended ejector. Depth should be about .032-.036 inch. Shorter often causes the hook to slip the rim...longer sometimes binds the rim with the ejector as it twists and tries to release.
Best educated guess is short-cycle though...Too much recoil spring.
On the failure to feed/stopping on the ramp...If the gun has the standard
barrel/frame design, (Not an integral ramped barrel) Lay the barrel in the frame and push if down and back firmly. The lower edge of the barrel throat.(ramp) should sit slightly forward of the top corner of the frame ramp/bed area. About a 32nd inch (.0325) is good. It can be more, but not less.
Though many guns do okay with the barrel throat flush with the top of the ramp, it can and does cause problems in most.
Check for a sharp corner on the bottom of the extractor hook, and for signs of
contact in the extractor groove. If the corner digs in as the round strips, it puts things in a bind. Relieve the bind by breaking the corner on a stone with a swiping motion to form a radius. Check for a sharp corner on the bottom wall of the extractor, where the rim first engages it. Lightly bevel that area with a square needle file with light cutting pressure to keep it smooth. Polish with fine paper on a flat, hard tool. Easy does it. Too much bevel, and you lose contact area with the rim and wall.
If the barrel throat/ramp has too steep of an angle, it can cause a hangup there. This is the place where you get into altering the barrel throat. Careful
as you go here. Best done with a scrape if you have to work freehand. Avoid a Dremel and a grinding wheel. You can go too far too quickly to correct the mistake. Decreasing the angle sets the top of the ramp deeper into the chamber...which causes reduced case head support. No way around that, but you can get away with a little as long as headspace is good.
Check for a sharp corner at the top of the barrel throat and break it LIGHTLY
with a scrape...Smooth it up with fine paper. BUT...before you start cutting and scraping, try good mag springs. Weak springs don't give the feeding round a good boost under the extractor, and the slide has to overcome the
angle in order to break the round over to horizontal during the final approach into the chamber. When the round reaches the release point in the magazine...where the feed lips flare out...the rim should be well under the extractor hook.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Aye!
Bingo! One of the first things that I tell to a student of the 1911 is to go out and buy an old Thompson Auto Ordnance pistol. If the price seems too good to be true, there's a reason for it. If he can get it to run, he's got the makin's
of a pistol mechanic.
And I agree 101%. 5 malfunctions in a hundred rounds doesn't even make for a good range beater unless you want it to practice malfunction clearance drills. Maybe 5 malfunctions in 50,000 rounds is a little more to my liking.
RogersPrecision said:
Bingo! One of the first things that I tell to a student of the 1911 is to go out and buy an old Thompson Auto Ordnance pistol. If the price seems too good to be true, there's a reason for it. If he can get it to run, he's got the makin's
of a pistol mechanic.
And I agree 101%. 5 malfunctions in a hundred rounds doesn't even make for a good range beater unless you want it to practice malfunction clearance drills. Maybe 5 malfunctions in 50,000 rounds is a little more to my liking.
RogersPrecision
Member
Tuner,
Perhaps I am being too active here.
I do indeed acknowledge that this is Tuner and Fuffs neighborhood.
No, I'm not trolling for work.
Indeed I am refusing ANY new work.
I AM attempting to relate my suggestions based on 20 yrs of commercial work.
Not 50 yrs of 'aquaintence' with the 1911. Not 30 yrs of 'working with'.
20 solid years of supporting my family solely via my 1911 work.
There is a difference.
Perhaps I am being too active here.
I do indeed acknowledge that this is Tuner and Fuffs neighborhood.
No, I'm not trolling for work.
Indeed I am refusing ANY new work.
I AM attempting to relate my suggestions based on 20 yrs of commercial work.
Not 50 yrs of 'aquaintence' with the 1911. Not 30 yrs of 'working with'.
20 solid years of supporting my family solely via my 1911 work.
There is a difference.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Active
Not at all, Chuck. Chime in any time with advice and/or instructions on how to correct a problem. We welcome your input, appreciate the help, and nobody has more respect for your work and your abilities than I do.
But, please don't assume that my "aquaintence" with the 1911 has been
limited to kitchen-table tinkering and on/off periods of inactivity. I've earned my daily bread with'em the same as you have...and I've made sure they were right for people who had to take'em into dark places. Never been much into
custom work. As I've said numerous times here and other places...I'm just a mechanic, and all I do is see to it that they run.
Jump in any old time!
Not at all, Chuck. Chime in any time with advice and/or instructions on how to correct a problem. We welcome your input, appreciate the help, and nobody has more respect for your work and your abilities than I do.
But, please don't assume that my "aquaintence" with the 1911 has been
limited to kitchen-table tinkering and on/off periods of inactivity. I've earned my daily bread with'em the same as you have...and I've made sure they were right for people who had to take'em into dark places. Never been much into
custom work. As I've said numerous times here and other places...I'm just a mechanic, and all I do is see to it that they run.
Jump in any old time!
All I know about the 1911, I have learned from this forum and the m1911.org. when I first got my Mil-Spec, It would hiccup on a couple of mags, not knowing it was the mags fault. Reading Tuner's thread on the dimple follwer and the 11# spring in the 1911 mag, the Mil-Spec has been 100%.
I have gone back and read every post that Tuner, Fuff, and Roger has written, and looked at the Question that Jammer, and Kart Racer has asked. with many more questions to be asked. With this forum and Kuhnhausen's book. I have totally replace an extractor, slide stop,mainspring housing, sear, hammer, disconnect,and firing pin stop. I don't know how to tell these people thank you, but with out them I probably still wonder why my Mil-Spec still hiccups.
I have gone back and read every post that Tuner, Fuff, and Roger has written, and looked at the Question that Jammer, and Kart Racer has asked. with many more questions to be asked. With this forum and Kuhnhausen's book. I have totally replace an extractor, slide stop,mainspring housing, sear, hammer, disconnect,and firing pin stop. I don't know how to tell these people thank you, but with out them I probably still wonder why my Mil-Spec still hiccups.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Hiccups be Gone!
SACOLT! Exactly my point. The biggest majority of these problems are simple
in origin and just as simple to correct. Jumpin' on one with a file and a grindstone before ya find out what's causin' the problem is akin to a dentist who starts yankin' out your teeth before he figures out exactly why you have a toothache...and it often leads to expensive repairs or outright replacement of the gun. That's been my position here all along:
Troubleshoot the thing thoroughly and THEN reach for the tools.
SACOLT! Exactly my point. The biggest majority of these problems are simple
in origin and just as simple to correct. Jumpin' on one with a file and a grindstone before ya find out what's causin' the problem is akin to a dentist who starts yankin' out your teeth before he figures out exactly why you have a toothache...and it often leads to expensive repairs or outright replacement of the gun. That's been my position here all along:
Troubleshoot the thing thoroughly and THEN reach for the tools.
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Darkness
Member
Yes, Chuck, I understand that CDs are not cream of the crop pistols. However, I do not make my living working with 1911s. I do not have your expertise or access to your tools, etc. I do not have an assortment of parts with which I can make up a truely tuned work of art. You might look down on those of use who have to buy Yugos, but it'll get you to a grocery store just as well as a Bently. My line of work is application development and computer repair. I could go on and on about how some folks have crappy PCs with outdated software and how much better mine is, but if the job they wanted to do here was post on the message board, then by golly, it works just fine for them.
So, the question becomes, if the pistols are crap, what makes them crap? Instead of simply giving up on the pistol, I'd like to get it to work. The gun is accurate, easy to control, compact enough to hide easily, shots big ole bullets, but has a feeding problem. If I can get that resolved, then I have what amounts to a very workable and useful pistol for me, without having to spend money on a Kimber - Les Baer, STI and Wilson Combat super tuned racegun that comes with everything including Sirius radio. A lot of us have families to support as well, and dropping $1k+ on a pistol is not an easy thing to do.
If you take this the wrong way and get all bent out of shape, well, that's not what I intended to do.
I know my gun is not a high-priced fool-proof machine. That's why I am admitting here that it has a problem and asking for help from some people who have a lot more knowledge about these 1911s than I have. I am the kind of guy who would rather try to fix something than just give up and walk away. Therefore, I am willing to listen to anyone who has a good suggestion or a course of action for me to try. If you have some input, I would welcome it as well, and thank you for it. But, if it is only going to be how much my gun sucks in the first place, I'll ignore it and simply move on to the posts from folks who are actually trying to help.
Speaking of, thanks so far guys for your suggestions. I probably won't get a chance to really check things out till this weekend, but I'll definitely stick with it and let everyone know what I have found.
So, the question becomes, if the pistols are crap, what makes them crap? Instead of simply giving up on the pistol, I'd like to get it to work. The gun is accurate, easy to control, compact enough to hide easily, shots big ole bullets, but has a feeding problem. If I can get that resolved, then I have what amounts to a very workable and useful pistol for me, without having to spend money on a Kimber - Les Baer, STI and Wilson Combat super tuned racegun that comes with everything including Sirius radio. A lot of us have families to support as well, and dropping $1k+ on a pistol is not an easy thing to do.
If you take this the wrong way and get all bent out of shape, well, that's not what I intended to do.
I know my gun is not a high-priced fool-proof machine. That's why I am admitting here that it has a problem and asking for help from some people who have a lot more knowledge about these 1911s than I have. I am the kind of guy who would rather try to fix something than just give up and walk away. Therefore, I am willing to listen to anyone who has a good suggestion or a course of action for me to try. If you have some input, I would welcome it as well, and thank you for it. But, if it is only going to be how much my gun sucks in the first place, I'll ignore it and simply move on to the posts from folks who are actually trying to help.
Speaking of, thanks so far guys for your suggestions. I probably won't get a chance to really check things out till this weekend, but I'll definitely stick with it and let everyone know what I have found.
RogersPrecision
Member
Great questions, darkness.
I feel a bit hesitant in responding as your nick brings Goth High School kids to mind. Yes my daughter is a high school sophomore, no, she's not a goth.
Anyways, only reliable guns are of interest to me. Reliable guns with known quality metallurgy.
Enjoy that Phillipine copy. Those folks need all the help they can get.
Gary Paul Johnston once said 6" groups at 25 yards was ' combat acceptable'.
I would not disagree.
Some of us get 'sidetracked' when we are speaking of guns. We think of cops, soldiers, armed citizens that require consistent function. We tend to neglect the fun/hobby shooters.
"Look Ma! My $300 gun put them all in a 12"circle"
Metallurgy.
Quality steel. Made in the USA.
Some guns will literally last forever. An heirloom.
Heck ......I'm emotional with guns.........not looking for the minimum quality at
the BEST price.
Shoot Often, Be Well.
I feel a bit hesitant in responding as your nick brings Goth High School kids to mind. Yes my daughter is a high school sophomore, no, she's not a goth.
Anyways, only reliable guns are of interest to me. Reliable guns with known quality metallurgy.
Enjoy that Phillipine copy. Those folks need all the help they can get.
Gary Paul Johnston once said 6" groups at 25 yards was ' combat acceptable'.
I would not disagree.
Some of us get 'sidetracked' when we are speaking of guns. We think of cops, soldiers, armed citizens that require consistent function. We tend to neglect the fun/hobby shooters.
"Look Ma! My $300 gun put them all in a 12"circle"
Metallurgy.
Quality steel. Made in the USA.
Some guns will literally last forever. An heirloom.
Heck ......I'm emotional with guns.........not looking for the minimum quality at
the BEST price.
Shoot Often, Be Well.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Hold!
A'ight guys..Time! (Lordy! The things that happen when a guy grabs a little shuteye)
A point about the cheap clones is that they're often a first gun or intended to be a beater/gettin' to know you/ gun to whittle on and practice customizing for aspiring hobby smiths. My first one wasn't a new Colt.
I wouldn't have dared. My mentors wouldn't have let me anyway.
These guns do have a niche in the market in that some times you can get a pretty good one. I have an early 80s Thompson Auto Ordnance that functions perfectly and will hold its own with many NRM Colts and the like
in the accuracy department...and except for upgraded internals, and a better barrel bushing, it's bone stock. It's not up to the rigors of hard range duty, but it's reliable enough to serve as a trail gun or to stash in the trunk of a car
as an emergency, late-night broken down in a bad part of town companion...
for those who don't habitually carry. In the past, it's served as my loaner for folks who feel a need but can't afford one of their own at the moment.
Darkness also makes a good point about not giving up. That's not only a fine
old American attitude, it's a good way to learn how to troubleshoot and fix
these critters. I've also got a stubborn streak when it comes to a machine that won't work like it should.
The last point is one that I've made many times...and it's caused more than a few heated word exchanges here and other places. Some people simply can't afford, or can't justify the cost of a high-dollar pistol to go burn some ammo on a Sunday afternoon. They drop their hard-earned green on such guns, and hope for the best. When it doesn't turn out as hoped, they often find their way here looking for help. Sometimes they drop more money on a
name brand piece...and run into trouble...and come here looking for help.
We try to do that. Sometimes we succeed and sometimes not. Hard to bat a thousand without having the patient on the operating table...but we try.
Some are hopeless, while others respond to simple adjustments and tweaks.
Me? I'm here for the workin' stiff who ate peanut butter sandwiches for lunch for 6 months so he could afford to buy a pistol...and drew a clunker that won't work. The guy who can't afford to pay a smith 30 or 40 bucks an hour to fix the gun, or the guy who can't be without the gun for whatever reason while it's in transit...sometimes multiple times...to the manufacturer's
repair station for something that he could have fixed himself in 30 minutes or less with an extractor tweak or a good magazine...or just a detail strip and cleaning. That's very often all it takes. In short...my primary reason for being here is to try and teach the untrained and inexperienced how to maintain and repair the guns for themselves, and...failing that...to get the guns up and running hands-on, if they can bring'em to me...for the cost of parts only, if needed. Met many good people and made some fast friends
through this practice...some that will be lasting friends.
I didn't do that by proclaiming to a visitor that his "gun is junk and I wouldn't accept it as a gift", as one former member was fond of stating on most of his replies. I did it by offering to help...online or hands-on...whether the gun was a foreign-made "junker" or a Wilson Combat semi-custom...a Colt or a Baer. Why? Love of the breed, and for no other reason.
This thread is such an attempt to help solve some problems. It needs to stay that way. If it drifts off into an argument again, I'll close it. If Chuck or any of the other professionals on the board want to chime in with a possible solution, it will be welcomed. I have a lot on my plate these days, and can't
hang around as much as I'd like to. So...help us out or please don't waste bandwidth with condescending comments about a man's particular choice of pistols. He has what he has, and he's gotta try to make a glass of lemonade.
A'ight guys..Time! (Lordy! The things that happen when a guy grabs a little shuteye)
A point about the cheap clones is that they're often a first gun or intended to be a beater/gettin' to know you/ gun to whittle on and practice customizing for aspiring hobby smiths. My first one wasn't a new Colt.
I wouldn't have dared. My mentors wouldn't have let me anyway.
These guns do have a niche in the market in that some times you can get a pretty good one. I have an early 80s Thompson Auto Ordnance that functions perfectly and will hold its own with many NRM Colts and the like
in the accuracy department...and except for upgraded internals, and a better barrel bushing, it's bone stock. It's not up to the rigors of hard range duty, but it's reliable enough to serve as a trail gun or to stash in the trunk of a car
as an emergency, late-night broken down in a bad part of town companion...
for those who don't habitually carry. In the past, it's served as my loaner for folks who feel a need but can't afford one of their own at the moment.
Darkness also makes a good point about not giving up. That's not only a fine
old American attitude, it's a good way to learn how to troubleshoot and fix
these critters. I've also got a stubborn streak when it comes to a machine that won't work like it should.
The last point is one that I've made many times...and it's caused more than a few heated word exchanges here and other places. Some people simply can't afford, or can't justify the cost of a high-dollar pistol to go burn some ammo on a Sunday afternoon. They drop their hard-earned green on such guns, and hope for the best. When it doesn't turn out as hoped, they often find their way here looking for help. Sometimes they drop more money on a
name brand piece...and run into trouble...and come here looking for help.
We try to do that. Sometimes we succeed and sometimes not. Hard to bat a thousand without having the patient on the operating table...but we try.
Some are hopeless, while others respond to simple adjustments and tweaks.
Me? I'm here for the workin' stiff who ate peanut butter sandwiches for lunch for 6 months so he could afford to buy a pistol...and drew a clunker that won't work. The guy who can't afford to pay a smith 30 or 40 bucks an hour to fix the gun, or the guy who can't be without the gun for whatever reason while it's in transit...sometimes multiple times...to the manufacturer's
repair station for something that he could have fixed himself in 30 minutes or less with an extractor tweak or a good magazine...or just a detail strip and cleaning. That's very often all it takes. In short...my primary reason for being here is to try and teach the untrained and inexperienced how to maintain and repair the guns for themselves, and...failing that...to get the guns up and running hands-on, if they can bring'em to me...for the cost of parts only, if needed. Met many good people and made some fast friends
through this practice...some that will be lasting friends.
I didn't do that by proclaiming to a visitor that his "gun is junk and I wouldn't accept it as a gift", as one former member was fond of stating on most of his replies. I did it by offering to help...online or hands-on...whether the gun was a foreign-made "junker" or a Wilson Combat semi-custom...a Colt or a Baer. Why? Love of the breed, and for no other reason.
This thread is such an attempt to help solve some problems. It needs to stay that way. If it drifts off into an argument again, I'll close it. If Chuck or any of the other professionals on the board want to chime in with a possible solution, it will be welcomed. I have a lot on my plate these days, and can't
hang around as much as I'd like to. So...help us out or please don't waste bandwidth with condescending comments about a man's particular choice of pistols. He has what he has, and he's gotta try to make a glass of lemonade.
- Status