Need the 870 Experts, Pretty Please

[Kame B.]

Just got a good of a deal on a used wingmaster, almost too good to be true. The barrel is a good looking vented rib 30inch 2 3/4 chamber full choke that dates it back to 1974, but the receiver is in mint condition, and I mean it looks brand spakin new. I wasnt to pleased with the clear coat finish on the wood, because it looked cheap and very thin. So, with that said, I broke the shotgun down, took off the wood furniture and started the process of refinishing. As I was sanding the stock I noticed a stain coat was coming off and the wood kept getting lighter and lighter, until it was a golden white. Then I did a inspection of the grain, and noticed it does not have the pattern of Dark Walnut. The damn thing is Oak, I even used a boiled linseed oil treatment on the wood, just to make sure, and lo and behold the color came out in a golden brown, not dark brown. Also, the stock does have the flur de lis checkering in the butt stock, and forearm.

So my question is, did Remington ever make a wingmaster with oak stocks? There is no question in my mind that this is not Dark Walnut wood, but I've never heard of a 870 Wingmaster that didnt come in Walnut. I've had four of them over the years, they all dated back to the 70's and 80's and all have Walnut stocks. Like I said, the receiver, bolt, mag tube, everything but the barrel looks like it was built yesterday.

Speculation: I'm thinking the guy who sold it to me did a barrel swap an old wingmaster to a new wingmaster, since the new ones have adjustable choke and this old barrel is a 30" full choke. But I still dont understand the oak wood.

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

The low end Express versions had beech stocks but never saw any 870 Wingmasters with oak.

 

[jmr40]

Oak would be unacceptable as stock material, I doubt that it is oak. Oak is way too heavy, difficult to machine and it cracks and splits very easily. Walnut color will vary quite a bit, some is naturally dark, some is almost white. The better grades of walnut are very expensive and no gun manufacturer uses the good stuff. I'm betting it is just a cheap grade of walnut with a dark stain.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

The Express Models standard wood stocks are made from Birch The laminate stocks are made from Beech. They did make a run of them with Walnut a few years ago. The Wimgmasters where Walnut. Never seen them made from Oak, to heavy and split to easy. What you could have is a very light Walnut.
Here is a pic with two of the tactical checkering patterns for the 870's. The one on the right is the older style. What type of checkering and butt plate are on your stock?


Here is a tip when refinishing a stock. If your using sandpaper to remove the old finish, your doing it wrong. Sandpaper is used to remove wood.
The stock should be stripped with a chemical stripper and lightly sanded to smoothed it.

 

[dh1633pm]

I texted my friend at Remington. He has been there 30 plus years at "The Arms" as it is referred to locally. No oak stocks for the 870. Oak is distinct. Got a picture of it? Love my 870.

 

[rbernie]

Oak is very distinctive, because of its very open grain. Remington never made any stocks from oak, as far as I know.

 

[George P]

The better grades of walnut are very expensive and no gun manufacturer - of inexpensive guns - uses the good stuff.

There are plenty of gun makers, especially shotguns and high-end rifles, that use nothing but the best - marble cake walnut root burl. And yes, you WILL pay for that.



BTW, this gun goes for $20K

 

[Kame B.]

I texted my friend at Remington. He has been there 30 plus years at "The Arms" as it is referred to locally. No oak stocks for the 870. Oak is distinct. Got a picture of it? Love my 870.

From all the comments above, I went back and sanded the linseed oil coat off, and back down to the wood. Here is a picture of the butt stock that has been sanded and the forearm with a "factory" finish. I haven't started the forearm yet since the butt stock has got me baffled. If it is Dark walnut, this has got to be the cheapest grade I have ever seen, the top of it is white and fades to a dark brown.

 

[dh1633pm]

Looks like birch to me. You got an excellent buy on an 870. Best shotgun ever made. Many will debate, but there is more than perfection that makes it the best.

 

[Kame B.]

The Express Models standard wood stocks are made from Birch The laminate stocks are made from Beech. They did make a run of them with Walnut a few years ago. The Wimgmasters where Walnut. Never seen them made from Oak, to heavy and split to easy. What you could have is a very light Walnut.


Here is a tip when refinishing a stock. If your using sandpaper to remove the old finish, your doing it wrong. Sandpaper is used to remove wood.
The stock should be stripped with a chemical stripper and lightly sanded to smoothed it.

Sorry gunny, but I do both strip and sand, I always resurface anything I refinish. I've been a painter/refinisher/carpenter since I was 17, and that was 25 years ago. As a painter, I'll have to tell ya. If ya aint sanding, then you are doing it wrong. I start out with 250grit paper and step my way up 1000grit. trust me, it's being done right. Here is the last job it did on a Ruger M77. And this was fully sanded down and just boiled linseed oil applied. Dark Walnut and linsee oil goes great together.



This is what happen to the new Wingmaster stock once I appied linseed oil

 

[Shimitup]

To me that definitely looks like walnut, plain straight grain but definitely walnut. Birch would be very white even oiled.

 

[243winxb]

I do both strip and sand

Do you raise the grain before sanding?

 

[Dentite]

Looks like walnut to me.

 

[Scooter22]

Thats walnut. You keep saying "Dark walnut". That may be what Remington called it with the finish on it. I think you may be thinking of "Black walnut" which is a darker wood from the start. Looks like a nice piece of wood if you finish it properly. From the light streaking it looks like you didn't get all the finish out of the wood. That Dupont RKW finish is a b--- to get out. Took a lot of stripper and flushing on mine. Then I rubbed BLO into it for a duller finish. It's dark with nice grain. But mine is from "78" so the quality of the wood may be different..

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Sorry gunny, but I do both strip and sand, I always resurface anything I refinish. I've been a painter/refinisher/carpenter since I was 17, and that was 25 years ago. As a painter, I'll have to tell ya. If ya aint sanding, then you are doing it wrong. I start out with 250grit paper and step my way up 1000grit. trust me, it's being done right. Here is the last job it did on a Ruger M77. And this was fully sanded down and just boiled linseed oil applied. Dark Walnut and linsee oil goes great together.

View attachment 792167

This is what happen to the new Wingmaster stock once I appied linseed oil

View attachment 792168

Good to know. I’ve been doing stock work for just over 30 years. When people say that they sanded off the finish, most are removing wood too.
Your stock is Walnut, but not Black Walnut. To get it darker without it looking like you have stained it, add some dark brown alcohol base die to your oil and rub it in.
Your Ruger stock is Black Walnut. Ruger uses Black Walnut, but applies a spray on finish and then dries it. BLO does a much better job of bringing out the color.

 

[Riomouse911]

Agreed, that's plain-Jane walnut. The dark walnut stain will make it the "usual" black walnut color you're used to seeing.

Personally I'd linseed oil it like the one up above and let the wood naturally color for you.

 

[Kame B.]

Thats walnut. You keep saying "Dark walnut". That may be what Remington called it with the finish on it. I think you may be thinking of "Black walnut" which is a darker wood from the start. Looks like a nice piece of wood if you finish it properly. From the light streaking it looks like you didn't get all the finish out of the wood. That Dupont RKW finish is a b--- to get out. Took a lot of stripper and flushing on mine. Then I rubbed BLO into it for a duller finish. It's dark with nice grain. But mine is from "78" so the quality of the wood may be different..

You are right, I should have been calling it Black Walnut, sorry for the confusion. But yes, the stock is fully sanded down, I stripped, soaked it to raise the grain,wet sanded, let dry, then abrasive sanding, to fine sanding. Those streaks are the grain, good eye though, that is what has got me concern about the wood. I've never seen such a drastic change in the colorization in wood before. I guess I'm just disappointed in the quality of the wood when I compare it to my 1971 Wingmaster that I refinished. It is just straight BLO on the walnut stock, guess they dont make them like they use to.

 

[Kame B.]

Do you raise the grain before sanding?

In some cases I go right to sanding. Depending on the age of the finish and how wore out it is. I can start with 250grit paper and sand the finish completely off without cutting into the wood. Here is a video in one such case where I started sanding and didnt use a stripper:



But I used every trick in the book on the new wingmaster butt stock, and it is what it is. sadly

 

[1KPerDay]

In some cases I go right to sanding. Depending on the age of the finish and how wore out it is. I can start with 250grit paper and sand the finish completely off without cutting into the wood. Here is a video in one such case where I started sanding and didnt use a stripper:



But I used every trick in the book on the new wingmaster butt stock, and it is what it is. sadly

Is there a reason you don't use stripper? Is there a reason you don't use sanding blocks?

 

[GunnyUSMC]

So it’s a Polly finish, not BLO.

 

[1KPerDay]

You do BLO and then poly over the top? Doesn't the oil prevent the poly from adhering/drying properly?

 

[Kame B.]

Is there a reason you don't use stripper? Is there a reason you don't use sanding blocks?

Some cases stripper is not need, the finish is useually worn and easy to sand off. I like sand paper in my hand so I can gauge the pressure I use and feel the stock so I dont round off sharp edges.

So it’s a Polly finish, not BLO.

Yes, on all the Black walnut stocks I've done, I use BLO just to bring out the rich color of the stock and Spar Urethane for the clear coat finish: https://www.minwax.com/wood-product...terior-exterior/minwax-helmsman-spar-urethane It's some really tough stuff, it's used for exterior doors, furniture, and floors. BLO doesnt do a very good job keeping out moisture, and it's usually 100% humidity where I live

You do BLO and then poly over the top? Doesn't the oil prevent the poly from adhering/drying properly?

Oh BLO is the best thing for oil base paints and clear coat applications. Read the can one day:
http://www.kleanstrip.com/product/boiled-linseed-oil "Improves flow and gloss of oil base paints" What it does, is help the self leveling agent in the oil finish product (clear coat or color paint) so that way you wont have a stacking effect when it drys, it will have a mirror look to it. Totally smooths out the finish.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

I also live in the south where the humidity can make it feel like your swimming on dry land.
A proper BLO finish needs a wax top coat as a sealer.
The trouble with Spar Urethane and other Polly finishes is that they can turn yellowish and crack and chip.
No matter how thin an old finish is, it is still in contact with the wood. No matter how light you sand you will still have to sand down to the wood to remove the finish. The old finish will also be in the wood grain. You will have to sand it down to remove it or use a stripper to remove it.
I once saw an old Gunsmith smack a student with a phone book for sanding on a stock without a block of any kind.

 

[Kame B.]

I also live in the south where the humidity can make it feel like your swimming on dry land.
A proper BLO finish needs a wax top coat as a sealer.
The trouble with Spar Urethane and other Polly finishes is that they can turn yellowish and crack and chip.
No matter how thin an old finish is, it is still in contact with the wood. No matter how light you sand you will still have to sand down to the wood to remove the finish. The old finish will also be in the wood grain. You will have to sand it down to remove it or use a stripper to remove it.
I once saw an old Gunsmith smack a student with a phone book for sanding on a stock without a block of any kind.

Ah, well I never went to any kind of gun smith school. I started out at a company called Jackson Stone. I worked in the wood worker station making molds for prefabricated decorative concrete walls. I got to learn a lot about sanding, even had to sand concrete a few times. Blocks are not necessary as long as you have a steady hand, you get to be a little more intimate with the wood when done by hand. Strippers only do so much, I still have to take out a thin layer of the wood to get all stain, finish, oil, and what ever top coat that has been soaked into the wood. So, in some cases why even use a chemical and make a mess when you can just start sanding. It's such a thin layer you have to take out it is hardly noticeable, plus most of the stocks I have done have dents and dings that abrasive sanding in places is necessary. I say I take off about a half a mill when I sand, while keeping the contours in line, and all the turned edges sharp.

I also worked for a furniture shop called Overby's. The old man there taught me a lot about varnishes and touch ups, he was a sharp old man, I got to learn a lot from him. I've applied what I know to all kinds of wood projects, so I guess you could say I'm working these stocks like furniture. Would I be wrong to do so? I'll take anymore advice you are willing to spill. I know from the years of doing projects like this there is always room to learn. For example, you said the poly coats will turn yellow and crack after time. In residential construction I use Minwax Spar Urethane for exterior doors, I triple coated a door for a regular costumer I've been dealing with for years. We got about four years out of it before it was time to refinish it, but this is a exterior wood door with laminated sides made of ash. It faces north east, so about 3 hours out of the day it's not getting direct sun light,and it's getting a fair share of Mississippi weather 24/7. So with that said, would the poly coat hold up on a maintained gun? How much time would you give it before it starts ageing and yellowing? And as far as the BLO goes I thought it was okay to use oil base products on top. I like to rub in a coat of BLO between poly coats. My other wingmaster, and other guns I have done that get a high gloss finish, I will coat them several times. For example, I'll coat the raw stock with BLO to bring out the color, then I rub it down with 0000 steel-wool, and then spray a generous coat of Spar. After it drys, I'll rub it down with 1000 grit sand paper, and apply another coat of BLO, let dry, rub with 0000 steel-wool, then spray a light coat of Spar on top. I repeat these steps 7 times, or to the point that I have 2 mills of clear on top of the wood. What do you think of this process? I would really like some insight if anyone would like to speak on this technique.

 

[1KPerDay]

Seems strange to put BLO on top of poly or vise versa. But if it works for you, more power to you.