Need to choose an AR-15 format.

[Greg8098]

I have narrowed my AR choices down to just a few manufacturers. I need the most accurate, reliable, bust most importantly the most DURABLE. I don't know much about ARs yet, but I do know not to buy Olympic Arms. So THR members, I really, really need some good input fast.

 

[Avenger29]

Have heard very good things about Stag, and they make the only lefty AR, if that is a factor...

 

[kingpin008]

What's wrong with Oly Arms? I've heard nothing but good stuff about their products.

 

[Zeke Menuar]

I have a Stag Lower, so I can vouch for Stag in that regard.

My upper is from CMMG. I looked at all the companies mentioned and CMMG has 1/7 twist barrels, 4150 barrel steel and a myriad of options that can be installed by them so you don't have to.

Their prices are fair. Quality is second to none. My upper was in stock and got to me in five days.

And it shoots far better than I do.



ZM

 

[G95]

i don't think you could go wrong with any of these 4 choices but i don't think Stag has been around as long as the other 3

 

[Chris Rhines]

The eternal question - What are you going to use it for?

- Chris

 

[bglz42]

For my first AR, I picked an RRA Predator Pursuit for High Power competition (match rifle). My second followed two weeks later, a Tactical Entry. I've been tickled with the performance and quality of both. Cheap, too. The triggers sold me.

 

[Trumpet]

I tried searching here, but couldn't pull up the thread I wanted. Anyway, Bartholomew Roberts posted this here a while back...

"Ever wonder why a Colt LE6920 sells for over $1k while an Olympic Plinker sells for under $600 on occasion? One reason is that there are dozens of places to change parts away from the specifications military contractors must provide to cheaper parts and practices that may not be necessary for commercial ARs. Not all of these changes are bad. Many of them will never be noticed by 99% of shooters; but some of them can effect function and I think it is important that a buyer understand what type of trade they are making when purchasing a rifle.

For an easy to follow shorthand, I've set up the following reference system (reflecting only my own opinions):
* Most likely will not make a difference for all but the most demanding shooters who put their rifles to hard use.
** Unlikely to make a difference for the vast majority of recreational shooters, may see occasional issues among those who train frequently.
*** Known to effect reliability for all users, though it may still not be an issue if you don't shoot that much.

1. Use cheap extruded or cast charging handle instead of proper forged charging handle.**
2. Cheap shot-filled or plastic buffer instead of correct military rifle or carbine buffer.***
3. 4140 barrel steel instead of 4150 MIL-B-11595.*
4. Don't proof test the barrel or bolt.*
5. No need for magnetic particle inspection of barrel or bolt.*
6. Don't test-fire the rifle prior to selling it.***
7. Replace heat-shielded handguard with lower grade plastic and no heat shield handguards.**
8. Use the same front sight base for every model instead of F-marked front sight base for flattops.*
9. Cast front sight base instead of forged.*
10. Cast upper and lower receivers.**
11. Plastic upper and lower receivers.**
12. Have a bunch of uppers that don't quite meet the Picatinny spec? We'll take them at a discount!**
13. Torquing and staking the gas key is something the customer can do.***
14. No chrome-lining.*
15. Why buy chrome-silicon springs designed for the weapon when we can use a cheaper steel and cut them to fit?***
16. That part is only a little out of spec. We can make it work with a little grinding and save money on parts too!***
17. Why use trained monkeys for assembly when regular monkeys work for half and can do the job almost as well?***
18. Make so many exceptions to your "lifetime warranty" that it will be impossible for anyone to ever make a valid claim against your "warranty."
19. Nobody will ever notice a few .001" difference on that part.**
20. Our patented spray-paint finish is much better than anodizing.**
21. Shipping every rifle with an HBAR profile to save machining costs, even if it is an entry rifle/"lightweight" carbine.*
22. Replace metal parts with plastic -plastic magazine release, trigger guard or delta ring.**
23. Use an Unmarked/mismarked A2 Elevation Adjustment Knob for the rear sight.**
24. Plastic A2 trapdoors in the butt of the rifle stock.**
25. Replace forged AR15 hammer with cast hammer.**
26. No drain hole in stock screw.**
27. Dremel cut feed ramps instead of feed ramps cut prior to anodizing.***
28. Use cheaper cast/extruded receiver extension instead of military extension (different diameter also).**
29. No parkerizing under the FSB.*
30. Straight pins or even roll pins instead of taper pins in FSB.***
31. Using A2 windage drums on detachable carry handles.**
32. Don't mark the barrel with chambering or twist rate.**
33. Don't stake the castle nut in place.**
34. Don't shot-peen the bolt during manufacturing.*

Note that there is often disagreement about how crucial some of these issues are and likely people will disagree with some of the arbitrary judgements I've made just to simplify it for those who don't want to read through a discussion on each of the 34 points. Also note that you can often learn more about any one of these subjects using a quick search in the rifle forum.

The manufactures that come the closest are the Colt LE line ("commercial" colts cut corners), Sabre, LMT, and Bravo Co."

The only others I'd really look to would be the "custom" route from the likes of MSTN or Denny

ETA...Duh. It's in Mr. Robert's archived "stickied" post at the top of this forum. Whoops.

 

[cracked butt]

The above list is the diference between a Mercedes and a Chevy Malibu. Both do the same thing, one might give you added longevity and a smidge better reliability but at a significant diference in cost.

Busmaster, DPMS, STAG, Armalite- I''ve compared them before and there doesn't seem to be much difference, just pick one that has the exact features that you want. I ended up buyng a Bushmaster just because of local availabilty, butany of the others would have met my needs just as well.

 

[Trumpet]

Both do the same thing, one might give you added longevity and a smidge better reliability

Wrong. He said DURABILITY is the most important thing.

 

[trueblue1776]

Coming from a guy who has gone through multiple M16's, i.e. the Holy Grail to most AR-15 shooters, my Stag lower/Bushmaster upper is an excellent rifle, performance on par with military issue guns. Colts are good but overrated, and before anyone points it out, I don't manufacture the M16 or AR-15, I only use(d) them.

My rifle cost me $675 total.

Oly Arms is the only POS AR-15 I have seen. DPMS has gotten better.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Personally, it seems to me as though DPMS has improved their product lately and Bushmaster seems to be going the other way. Even with that though, there is hardly a dime's worth of difference between the manufacturers you listed. Out of those four, I would take the Armalite because I like mid-length gas systems and Armalite consistently produces the best barrels out of the four.

Much more important than the manufacturer is the dealer though. All of the manufacturers you listed produce the occasional lemon and when you call customer service, you are just one guy with a problem that the manufacturer doesn't normally deal with. A dealer knows the ins and outs and buys a lot more product than you do. A dealer willing to handle any problems for you and get them solved correctly is the best way to go regardless of manufacturer. Of course you'll pay more for service, whether you use it or not... but the guy selling at $30 above cost has cut his margin as thin as he can and he doesn't have the time or inclination to help you out if something isn't running right.

If I had to bet money that an AR would handle any task right out of the box, then I would go with reliable custom builder like MSTN; but I wouldn't trust any AR from any manufacturer until I took it out and ran it until it was smoking hot and it was still chugging along reliably.

 

[Quintin Likely]

They all make good rifles, the ones you listed. Pick one, buy a bunch of ammo and go shoot.

 

[fal 4 me]

I need the most accurate, reliable, bust most importantly the most DURABLE

Then why have you ruled out two of the best models out there, the Colt Law Enforcement models and the Rock River Arms Government model. I realize these are a little more expensive than the choices you mentioned, but if you want the MOST of anything, your going to have to pay for it.

I don't own either of those myself, simply a Rock River Arms Mid-Length A2, which has been flawless in the 200 rounds I've fired from it so far.

 

[jpalovich]

My first AR-15 was a Bushmaster Target Rifle with a 20 inch barrel and I love it. I shoot the snots out of it and it doesn't quit. Not a problem what so ever.

 

[scubie02]

I'd probably say Bushmaster or Stag in that group. I know it's fashionable at the moment to bash bushmaster's and praise Stag's, but I have both at the moment and have never had an issue with the BM or the BM lower/Stag upper that I have, but have had some issues with the fullblown Stag. Any gun's a crapshoot, not matter the manufacturer, and don't let anyone tell you differently. One thing I WILL say in Stag's favor--you email them a question they respond VERY quickly, and if you call they are very pleasant. With Bushmaster if you email, they may get back to you in a couple weeks or so...

 

[Sry0fcr]

Any experience with CMMG? I'm digging their 18" SS Medcon rifle...

 

[rellascout]

I would not choose any of the above.

Not that they are bad but there are better choices.

I would recommend a Colt 6920 or a LMT.

These are the best of the best. The Colt is my personal preference. They are expensive but are the most durable and well made of the ARs. They are tier 1. You can get a Colt for about $1200.

The next in line would be the LMT. You can get a complete upper and then a complete lower and slap them together for under $900. LMT is very close to Colt.

One of the reasons I like Colts is that they hold their value. You can buy one today for $1200 shoot it for years and sell it for the almost the same thing you paid for it, if you ever need to sell it. They have real M4 cuts and are very well built. I know I know I have drank the cool aid.

 

[scubie02]

Since this is an AR thread, I expect any second to have somebody go on about "getting a CLUE" and telling us all how anything but a Colt is crap...well, maybe LMT or Sabre or that one other cool company...

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

Of the ones you listed, Stag is the best quality. It's also one of the most inexpensive.

 

[gaweidert]

I own 4 AR's. A Bushmaster XM15-E2s with 20" HBAR. An Olympic K3B with a 16" HBAR, a pre-ban with a SENDRA lower/Colt SP1 upper and a RRA NM lower with an FNMI 20" HBAR 1/7 twist upper.

None have ever failed me. In fact I use the Olympic as my test bed rifel for other parts. For instance I got a chrome DPMS bolt carrier group for my retro AR. It was so tight that I had a lot of issues with short stroking. So it was off the the range with the Olympic and 500 rounds of ammo to break it in. The Olympic is my smoothest operating AR. Chrome lined barrels are not a big deal to me. I shoot milsurps all the time and none of them have chromed lined barrels.

All that being said, Stag or Bushmaster probably the best of the pick, but in reality all of my AR's have been reliable and accurate.

 

[MarshallDodge]

Colts are overpriced in my opinion. Most items on that list posted by trumpet are differences between the lowest grade AR and the Colt but does not mean that anyone else does not go through the same processes. My "varmint" AR was built on Eagle parts and it will outshoot the "target" grade Colt anyday.

I have two AR's built with DPMS, Bushmaster, and Eagle parts. All have run just fine. My buddies have Rock Rivers and they are really nice. We shot a Rock River Tactical all day long one day and it ran flawlessly through one 30 round mag after another.

 

[glockman19]

I have a Stag. I'll get another. They make parts for most of the other AR's. I like www.lanworldinc.com and chris there is a pleasure to deal with and ahs good prices.

Next A Stag Model 2 and one in .308.

 

[Correia]

I'm a dealer, and I sell a lot more Stag than any other brand. I've never had a Stag come back with a problem, ever. I can't say that for the other brands.

I no longer carry Rock River, unless somebody absolutely wants one, I'll order it. But I won't stock them. They've started cheaping out on small parts in order to keep up on demand. Check out the retaining ring on the carbine stock. They aren't punched, they're locktited, and you find out why when you go to tap it off and the un-heat treated ring breaks into four pieces.

I've had problem Armalites, and problem Bushmasters. I think Colt is overpriced, and has customer service that sucks second only to HK. I haven't done many .223 DPMS rifles, and I've done a little bit with Olympic, no concrete opinion on those.

 

[zenner22]

As a complete beginner to the AR platform, I bought a new DPMS recently and so far no troubles. It is an extremely accurate gun and although it has only seen a couple hundred rounds, no failures.

Again, it's still new, as am I, so take that for what it's worth. I know DPMS doesn't have the prestige of some of the other brands but the price was right and it works. So far anyway.