Need to Identify Shotgun

[Lama]

A few months ago, my father-in-law passed and I inherited 13 long guns. There is quite a range in the group, from a brass Colt Model 94 Centennial to (2) WWII Japanese rifles. There were 2 Savage Model 1899s along with classic single shot .22.

There was one gun I could not identify, however, which is the reason for this post. It is a double barrel, side by side, 12 ga. I think, but it has no markings at all….no manufacture, s/n, model, gauge, etc. There are forging marks on some areas that makes you believe it is old. I’m hoping someone can give me an idea of what it is or direction on how to find out.

Thanks for your input.

 

[Jim Watson]

Kind of an odd design. I don't know the make but will point out that it is well worn and has Damascus barrels.
Nothing I would want to shoot, just hang on the wall and call Dad's Gun.

 

[55fairlane]

The stock and the angled firing pin bosses say "English " to me .

Might ,slim might, but there might be some info on the inside of the lock plates.

 

[vintovka]

Remove forearm and look under the barrels near the breech also look at the watertable where the barrels seat on the metal frame. Post close up pics. Look Belgian to me but not sure.

 

[BigBlue 94]

I have a similar gun, from W.M. Parkhurst. Says something about Belgian Steel on the "webbing" between barrels about 10" from the breech. It has that same laminated Damascus barrel construction. Worth about 150 bucks as a mint shooter. But they shouldnt be shot due to the poor barrel construction.

 

[vintovka]

From a old forum post

"Wm Parkhurst were the cheapest of Belgian imports marketted by Schoverling, Daly & Gales. In SD&G's 1912 catalogue the cheapest Wm Parkhurst hammer double listed at $7.75 up to the highest at $11.20. In the same catalogue the 00-grade L.C. Smith, the Fox Sterlingworth, and the Lefever Durston Special Grade each listed for $25."

Pretty sure you'll find Belgian proofs where i said. Still deserves a place of honor/remembrance on the wall. Prolly won't chamber a modern (70mm) 2 3/4" standard, but , these new mini shells will. That may be a potential problem which supports carefully neutering them. When asked to do so i either shorten pins or remove them. In latter case i make a small hole under the buttplate and conceal them there wrapped in oil cloth

 

[BigBlue 94]

From a old forum post

"Wm Parkhurst were the cheapest of Belgian imports marketted by Schoverling, Daly & Gales. In SD&G's 1912 catalogue the cheapest Wm Parkhurst hammer double listed at $7.75 up to the highest at $11.20. In the same catalogue the 00-grade L.C. Smith, the Fox Sterlingworth, and the Lefever Durston Special Grade each listed for $25."

Pretty sure you'll find Belgian proofs where i said. Still deserves a place of honor/remembrance on the wall. Prolly won't chamber a modern (70mm) 2 3/4" standard, but , these new mini shells will. That may be a potential problem which supports carefully neutering them. When asked to do so i either shorten pins or remove them. In latter case i make a small hole under the buttplate and conceal them there wrapped in oil cloth

Mine hangs as pictured above the door in my lathe/reloading room. Pops bought it as shown to make a lamp out of but never got around to it.

 

[gobsauce]

Mine hangs as pictured above the door in my lathe/reloading room. Pops bought it as shown to make a lamp out of but never got around to it.

Why not do it yourself? Sounds like an interesting project.

 

[BigBlue 94]

Why not do it yourself? Sounds like an interesting project.

If it had a butt stock i might. It looks mighty nice where it is over the door too. We do have one lamp he made out of an old 12ga pump.

 

[Lama]

 

[Lama]

Thanks for all the input....I did find manufacture date and s/n or model # under the foregrip. Looks like 1880.
I still wonder if this is a muzzle loader....I can't find any way to open the breech.

 

[entropy]

It's not a muzzle loader- the bosses are firing pin bosses, not percussion cap. It looks to me like someone long ago took the lever off (or it broke off) and it was welded or even soldered shut. You can see where the texture of the metal changes along the top of the tang. That's my theory and I'm stickin' to it.

 

[Jim Watson]

PATENTED June 1st 1880 means only that it was made in or AFTER 1880. After all, the SAA still has its 1873 patent date.

It is not a muzzle loader, the hinge pin and radius of the foreend iron are visible. I think it has some kind of trick opener in the trigger, trigger guard, or hammer rebound instead of a top snap or side lever. Possibly the subject of that 1880 patent. Play with it and see if you can get movement.

 

[BigBlue 94]

I second the notion of a 'trick' opening method. Might have to try and look the patent up

 

[entropy]

There is a line across the bottom of the tang-you might try pushing up on the back of the trigger guard. It might open kind of like a Bowen, Seitz, or Alfermann. (Trap guns that to open you push up on the trigger guard.)

 

[vintovka]

Well I'm surprised. The markings make me think it was made in US and maybe in very limited amounts. Many old companies like Hopkins and Allen, Crescent arms and even the multi branded "american gun company" pumped out many arms in lots of different style. They also made stuff called "hardware store" brands. Some time ago i remember a thread about unmarked salesman samples that were shown to retailers. The retailers could buy a number and have their name put on the item. Sears, Penny's, Western auto were known for this.

 

[vintovka]

When reattaching the barrels watch what moves.

 

[Johnm1]

These are the reasons a reputable gunsmith doesn't want to deal with an old worn-out low-cost firearm. And rightly so.

Thanks for all the input....I did find manufacture date and s/n or model # under the foregrip. Looks like 1880.
I still wonder if this is a muzzle loader....I can't find any way to open the breech.

I think the 1880 patent date is going to be your best source of information. I'm not sure how to search patents but it may lead to information that turns just another old shotgun into something interesting. Without an obvious way to open the action it could be a unique part of history lost to time. Or an idea doomed to failure.

 

[CoalTrain49]

It isn't a muzzle loader. I can see a hinge pin. It's a breech loader. It never had a top latch and no indication of a side or bottom latch.

Try pushing the front trigger forward. I think you have a very early Baker (patent) shotgun. LC Smith used that action also but they usually had the name engraved on the top rib and were generally higher quality than a Baker.

 

[Lama]

Thanks all for the input....I'm going to play with all these options again and be a little more aggressive than before...maybe something will move !!

 

[armedwalleye]

Almost appears the front of the trigger guard is not attached. I’m certainly no expert but to me it would suggest that downward movement of same is involved in the solution.

 

[rust collector]

My guess would be that it will open only when both hammers are drawn all the way back, cocked or at half-cock if there is that notch on the sear. Careful not to force, as old leaf springs are easily broken.

 

[shoobe01]

Yup, patent dates, and their forms, are useful. Google "shotgun june 1st 1880" and so on, and you'll find these discussed on several forums.

Quick look, seem to be Baker Guns, Syracuse NY. Many are marked as made by LC Smith for them.

If true, a somewhat lame collector's site for them, may lead you other good places:
http://www.bakercollectors.com/

 

[bersaguy]

Here's something interesting just looking around about Baker shotguns
"I was in the local gunshop this afternoon and I saw that they had an old Baker Model B shotgun, the kind where the front trigger acts as the action opener by pushing forward on it. "
Found that on another forum...try pushing forward on the front trigger

 

[Lama]

Wow ! This website is a valuable resource. The trick to open was pushing the lead trigger forward...opened right up.

I'm going to conclude that this gun is a Baker, model or s/n is 033. Mystery solved !