New American Rifleman, FBI Ammo/Arms Guy, Whataya Think?

[Strykervet]

Has some pretty good articles this one does, and since I can't post the written article on here that I'm referring to, I'll mention a few things to get the discussion going. Hopefully someone will come along with a link to an online source.

Now I REALLY liked the one about the FBI analyst that did ballistics testing. Sounds like my kind of job, so jealous. If you haven't read this, you should, at least that article. That rag is usually too political for me, I wish they'd refrain from running political ads and dedicating half the rag to that and Ruger ads. But it comes free and DOES have some good articles.

If you've read this article about the FBI arms analyst, what did you think? I'd like to get a discussion going. If he is on here, that would be awesome too. There were a few obvious mess ups (like where he was sent to FTU in '78 but tested the bullets that shot Reagan "several years later" right after he was shot?) but we all get old. Short of that tiny messup, the rest of the article was VERY informative to me and seemed worth taking for face value.

Basically, the article gives you a short brief on FBI procedures for testing ammo, what they went though, evolution of testing procedures, etc. It also puts a new light on the 9mm vs. .XX controversy. Check it out and get back to me and tell me what you think about that one article!

I think a more indepth book by this man would be invaluable to the shooting world.

He was the one that tested and recommended implementation of the 10mm, but says they wanted a .40 but it didn't exist and they didn't know there was a secret deal between Winchester and Smith. He also backed up my assumption that the 10mm was not taken out of service due to women not being able to handle recoil... Which is absurd when you consider they were firing .40 loads in a pistol much, much heavier.

So what was it that ruled the 1076 out? He said weight due to excessive frame size for the load, and reliability. Don't read too far into that --he said that "reliability" to the FBI meant every pistol being equally reliable for thousands of agents, that their criteria is different than that of a civilian.

FWIW, my 1006 is quite accurate AND reliable... But the SN that came next or next week may not have been. Mine has also been polished up and they mostly use them out of the box. My G20 and 29 are insanely reliable, and I carry the G29 a lot using a 180gr. GD but loaded a little stiffer than the FBI did (well, in the short barrel I get about 200fps more than they did in the 1076 with their load). The 1006 or G20 with those loads would be too much for SD. What do you guys all think of this? Should they have kept the 10mm had Glock made an SF frame at the time? It isn't TOO much bigger than the G22 truth be told.

But it exlpains how he went to .40 for this exact reason. They could get the load they wanted (at the time) using a smaller frame and a more reliable pistol regarding their citeria. He mentions it being a "wildcat" after the Miami Shootout, funny how a wildcat becomes so common SO fast, huh?

If anyone has a link to this article online, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE post it for those that don't get the rag. Thanks.

 

[cuervo]

Hinkley used exploding .22 rounds on Reagan? I sort of wondered about that part.

There were a couple of other things that seemed weird when I first read it, but I don't remember them all. I did wonder what he was talking about regarding the "secret" between Winchester and S&W.

I haven't read about it recently, but I do remember reading issues about their dependence on ballistic gel that wasn't standardized and their extrapolation of data to rate vests.

 

[belercous]

I wouldn't use any ammo for SD that passes the FBI test (Hornady Critical Duty) because of over-penetration. The article warns of this too.

I've heard the 10mm was rejected due to over-penetration & the grip size needed for the longer shell. Not sure if one or both reasons are correct.

I believe the article appeared in Guns & Ammo, not The American Rifleman.

 

[Snowdog]

Hinkley used exploding .22 rounds on Reagan?

Hinckley reportedly used "Devastator" .22LR that did contained a tiny bit of explosive compound in a hollow cavity on the nose of the slug.
From my understanding, Hinckley's shooting spree would have been more "devastating" had he used more conventional lead round-nose rather than the gimmick fodder he chose.

 

[P5 Guy]

I wouldn't use any ammo for SD that passes the FBI test (Hornady Critical Duty) because of over-penetration. The article warns of this too.

This may be true, but have you seen the size of some of the flat bill hat and baggy pants kids running around in my neighborhood? COM shots in those bellies would need 20" to hit a vital.

 

[Strykervet]

I wouldn't use any ammo for SD that passes the FBI test (Hornady Critical Duty) because of over-penetration. The article warns of this too.

I've heard the 10mm was rejected due to over-penetration & the grip size needed for the longer shell. Not sure if one or both reasons are correct.

I believe the article appeared in Guns & Ammo, not The American Rifleman.

No, this one was the most recent American Rifleman. It didn't warn against anything either, the article was an informative one, not a persuasive one. The only thing it said about penetration was that the 180gr. soft point '06 rounds they got were too powerful and that those had too much penetration (obviously) and that in handguns penetration was not yet considered that important to them prior to Miami '86. Said a 9mm FBI bullet that stopped just short of a bad guy's heart due to passing through his arm first prompted this change to consideration of penetration through all kinds of stuff, including the denim, doors, glass and etc. The 10mm 1076, he only mentions it being replaced due to heavy weight and some reliability issues. Now that pistol is VERY reliable, but what he also mentions them needing is gear and ammo that works all the time out of the box for every agent. So if you get a few 1076's that don't work with the FBI's magic bullet, that can rule out the whole handgun for the whole agency I guess. Now I have a 1006, and if I have a problem with one round not feeding, I can just load a different bullet or whatever. Finally, he mentions that the .40 just offered a more comfortable and familiar size frame for agents and police alike once it came out, and it could be loaded with their "magic bullet" formula. Personally, I like both the 10mm and .40, but I prefer the 10mm for its ability launch heavier bullets easier and safer and a little faster. The G29 is also very concealable and more controllable than the G27 I have (unless the G29 has very powerful loads).

Okay, those Devastators? I understand they are only good for getting in you in more trouble if you use them. I don't know, it might make a .22 of all things a tad more effective, but I can't see how and I doubt it. Gimmick bullets, but hey, it was 1980 and those things were being sold in the most prestigious arms magazines of the day. But of course FBI had to test 'em after that. I suppose the SS did too. He doesn't mention a whole lot about that, like I said, the article is brief, but he did have his wording or timeline wrong because like I said, he stated working at FTU in 1978 and that Reagan was shot "several" years later in 1980. But we all make little mistakes, and this is just an NRA rag and I also really appreciate the guy's contribution most of all. It was very informative.

 

[IROCZ]

Back in the day... LE rumors were that the strange (FBI specified) trigger system that the 1076 had was the root of the reliability problems. That trigger was not included in the 1006 and the 4506.

 

[belercous]

I see the article now in the American Rifleman. There's one in Guns & Ammo about Hornaday's Critical Defense (.40) ammo which passes the FBI tests. At the end of that article the author warns about over penetration.

 

[VA27]

IIRC, the 1076 had a decocker like the SIG, and there were issues with it. Sometimes it would even lock the action and not allow the trigger to be pulled, or the gun would fire when the decocker was activated. (A friend of mine put a round through his waterbed with a 1076.) Those would be enough reasons to move to a different gun.