nettlle
Contributing Member
I have never annealed and just ordered my first annealer. The annealer has a timer for the the length time heat is applied to each case. How do I determine the length of time. Do I need to order temp sticks?
New at annealing question
- Thread starter nettlle
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marchboom
Member
Tempilaq is good to see how if the case is heating up to the proper temp and how far down the case the heat goes. I use 650*. I want the necks to just start to turn red before the case moves out of the flame. There are numerous You Tube videos on this subject. What annealer did you get?
OP
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nettlle
Contributing Member
This one
GooseGestapo
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It depends on the cartridge case in question.
A .22Hornet will require much less than a .375H&H case.
I’ve found that 3-4seconds is enough for a .22Hornet, whereas a .308 or .30/06 will take 7-8seconds.
I either just use my fingers (‘06) or a Lee case trimmer case holder in a cordless screw driver to work well enough over the burner or my gas stove…
When the case neck starts to turn color, you’ve done enough.
Hot enough to burn your fingers and you’re doing too much…
A .22Hornet will require much less than a .375H&H case.
I’ve found that 3-4seconds is enough for a .22Hornet, whereas a .308 or .30/06 will take 7-8seconds.
I either just use my fingers (‘06) or a Lee case trimmer case holder in a cordless screw driver to work well enough over the burner or my gas stove…
When the case neck starts to turn color, you’ve done enough.
Hot enough to burn your fingers and you’re doing too much…
jmorris
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I watch the color of the propane flame and set the index speed so it indexes to the next case right before the flame color changes from blue to orange.
Obviously it takes longer to get a 50 bmg case to this temp, than a 22 hornet or any case with less brass mass to heat.
Looks something like this.
www.youtube.com
Obviously it takes longer to get a 50 bmg case to this temp, than a 22 hornet or any case with less brass mass to heat.
Looks something like this.
Brass annealing
www.youtube.com
I have the AGS, and I run it with dual torches. It works quite well.This one
As far as knowing much much? First just turn out the lights, or turn them way down so you can see the flame very clearly. Set annealer up to run fast, and just turn it down until the flame change from blue to orange happens. At that time its about perfect. You do have some wiggle room on this, as I do run mine for just a hair longer until the necks just start to glow, then pull them from the flame. I keep my torches pointed at the neck shoulder junction.
Varminterror
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No color change games - use tempilaq.
Blue68f100
Member
Use tempilaq. You apply it to the inside of the necks, this tells you when the temp as soaked through the wall thickness. Difference in brass thickness is going to give you a slight change in time.
@jmorris is correct on temp color change.
When you setup, the flame shape, distance from brass, speed of brass roll all plays in determining the time. You also have to pay attention to where you point the flame on the shoulder.
Do your setup in a simi dark room, this will help you see the flame characteristics. The use of clean polished brass will help you see the process.
@jmorris is correct on temp color change.
When you setup, the flame shape, distance from brass, speed of brass roll all plays in determining the time. You also have to pay attention to where you point the flame on the shoulder.
Do your setup in a simi dark room, this will help you see the flame characteristics. The use of clean polished brass will help you see the process.
N555
Member
If they're once fire and you know they're all once fired don't anneal them at all, use a collet die or neck bushing die to push them back to your favorite amount of undersize most people like -.002 of the bullets size. Never neck size only always bump the shoulder back.
If they have been fired twice or more or an unknown not number of times or mix firings anneal them to dead soft which means red hot for at least 2 seconds and then size them a FL with ball expander die.
Anything else you're just wasting time and torch fuel.
If they have been fired twice or more or an unknown not number of times or mix firings anneal them to dead soft which means red hot for at least 2 seconds and then size them a FL with ball expander die.
Anything else you're just wasting time and torch fuel.
Nature Boy
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Use the 750F Tempilaq on some scrap cases (same cartridge that you’re loading for). Apply it to the inside of the case mouth. When it just turns from white to clear you’ve reached your desired time/temp. Save those scrap cases and repeat the set up process for the next time.
AJC1
Member
We disagree on what should happen using the same method. I effectively neck size brass with a full length die. Most brass will not fill my chamber until the brass has been fired several times. My die is set to bump if the brass is long enough, but most isn't for a few cycles.
Being accurate in the description of events is important because I've read a ton of posts about people trying to bump, want to grind the die or shelholder to get bump, that is not needed. The comparator or precision mic gives current shoulder length and they are being told or inferring that they need to push it back .002-.003. Well if they are -.010 from chamber length that causes issues. This is only second bested by people trying to size brass with dies to get Sammi minimum dimensions for ammunition. Rcbs makes dies to size to minimum chamber, "the bottom drawing" so what they are trying to do is not even possible with their die set.....
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We disagree on that. You cannot neck size with a full length die. It sizes the body some. As the case enters the die it starts squeezing the body down some, which can actually move the shoulder forward before contact with the shoulder of the die. It depends on the fit of the case to the die, but the shoulder wants to go forward until the die's shoulder contacts it. Meanwhile, the FL sizer is squeezing the body of the case "sizing" it.
My guess is you have the die adjusted so it just touches the shoulder, keeping it at bay, or eventually you would have the same issue as neck sizing, the cases would start getting tough to chamber as the shoulder gets too far forward.
AJC1
Member
People oversize 30-30 so much the case datum needs to grow .022 before I touch the shoulder. I agree that the body may be sized but my point of contention was
A lot of folks do indeed oversize (move the shoulder too far) with bottlenecked rimmed calibers like .30-30
AJC1
Member
I traded a lot of range pickups of mine for 30-30 brass because like toilet paper it was just not to be had... I size everything that comes into my room after dealing with neck tension goblins from dad's brass.
He's basically right. At least touch the shoulder and keep it where it is on fired cases that still chamber, but most of us give it a little extra, how much depends on the application. Never more than .003 for me.
His message was don't neck size, which I agree with. You're "partial FL" sizing. No, that's not a technical term as far as I know.
N555
Member
Yeah my 30-30 rcbs dies are gapped 15 thousands above the shell holder, works great.
It is possible to not bump the shoulder not back far enough.
I tried gapping my 6.5 creedmoor rcbs die 3 thousands off the shell holder but after 2 firings and on the 3rd sizing I could fell resistance to closing the bolt so went back to touching the shell holder to the die.
I'm glad I decided to load and fire a Winchester, federal and lupula brass at my house several times to make sure gapping the die was or was not going to work before I made loaded a bunch of rounds that way.
I'm assuming nettlle is running something that head spaces off the shoulder and not something that head spaces off the rim or belt. Most rimmed and belted get way over sized by FL dies.
Varminterror
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Better to admit to ourselves that this is best described as “FL sizing without moving the shoulder.” Because that’s what it is…
Which, in fairness, and deference to folks like Guffey, if we run an FL sizer down a case which yields a shoulder in the same position (distance from the base of the case) as was the original shoulder, then we DID push the shoulder back. The body sizing squeezes the shoulder slightly forward, so if we measure it to be the same location as it went into the die, then it both moved forward when the body was squeezed and then was bumped back when the die shoulder made contact, as slight as it might have been in both directions.
Nature Boy
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Every neck sizer is a closet full length sizer because they all will eventually have to FL size the case in order to keep using it.
A lot of reloading is about keeping the variables constant round to round. Same powder charge, same seating depth, same neck tension, etc.
For that reason alone neck sizing isn’t a good idea. The body continues to expand shot to shot to the point that it will no longer chamber, then you FL size it and reset everything. That’s a lot of case variability and ensures every reloading cycle is going to be different, from a little to a lot
FL sizing every time brings the case back to baseline EVERY time, which promotes round to round consistency and that’s good for accuracy.
A lot of reloading is about keeping the variables constant round to round. Same powder charge, same seating depth, same neck tension, etc.
For that reason alone neck sizing isn’t a good idea. The body continues to expand shot to shot to the point that it will no longer chamber, then you FL size it and reset everything. That’s a lot of case variability and ensures every reloading cycle is going to be different, from a little to a lot
FL sizing every time brings the case back to baseline EVERY time, which promotes round to round consistency and that’s good for accuracy.
True dat
Exactly.
There was a fad for a while where folks were neck sizing, and using a body die whenever chambering got tough.
I never understood that because it's the antithesis of consistency.
jmorris
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I have sized only the neck portion of a case in a FL die. it's two tapers going into one another that contact each other, after the neck has been inside the portion of the die that sizes it.
And yes all of the issues of neck sizing exist because thats all you are doing, until you lower the die.
And yes all of the issues of neck sizing exist because thats all you are doing, until you lower the die.
Crosshair
Member
I used Tempilaq to start with, but I eventually moved to using flame color/brass just barely starting to glow with all lights off. Works just as good for my purposes and is much faster.
You need to adjust the timer every time you use the unit. Things won't be exactly the same each time. Practice on scrap brass. You can tell if they are annealed by crushing the necks with a pliers and comparing with a non-annealed
You need to adjust the timer every time you use the unit. Things won't be exactly the same each time. Practice on scrap brass. You can tell if they are annealed by crushing the necks with a pliers and comparing with a non-annealed
