New cartridge? Circa 1871, I mean.

[Bart Noir]

Don't want to be included with the threads about the latest 6.Xmm SpecOps terroristzapper, do I? I just read the article in a recent American Rifleman, about the first generation of Trapdoor Springfields, which were for .50-70 cartridges. There were some carbines in this caliber, just as later there were carbines in .45-70. But with these later carbines, the Army issued a carbine cartridge, same length but with less oomph and recoil.

Question is, did they ever issue a carbine version of the .50-70 cartridge? The article doesn't mention it, a dedicated cartridge collector told me "Nope, never was one" and only one book I have read ever mentioned one. That is the well known "Cartridges of the World" and he specifically describes the shorter length of the .50-70 carbine. So, do any of you know more on this?

Bart Noir

 

[Mike Irwin]

I've never seen a lower powered .50 caliber round at any of the shows I've been at.

I'll check Jean Huon this evening when I get home. His information is usually pretty spot on.

 

[cdbeaver]

At one time I had a .50-70 inside primed cartridge in my cartridge collection. It was a bit of a rarity and not readily available to collectors. I certainly don't recall having a .50-70 carbine shell, though.

 

[Jim K]

I have several inside primed .50-70 rounds and have seen many more; all have been the same basic length, with some minor variations that seem to be due solely to poor quality control.

I doubt there was a .50-70 carbine round simply because there were very few carbines. There were no Model 1865 or 1866 carbines, only 4 of the Model 1868 carbines (and none issued), and only 361 of the Model 1870, hardly enough to require any special cartridge.

There is also the question of recoil. To me, the .50-70 recoil is less than that of the .45-70, probably due to the larger chamber giving lower bullet velocity. But the .45-70 has significant recoil, especially in a carbine. I have fired the .45-70-500 rifle load in a carbine, and will testify that it is wicked. I have no doubt the carbine load(s) were welcomed by the troops.

Jim

 

[Mike Irwin]

OK, from Jean Huon...

There wasn't a .50-70 carbine round, but there WAS a .50-70 Cadet round.

The Cadet round had both a shorter case (34mm vs 44.8 for the standard round) and a lighter powder charge (2.92 grams of powder vs 4.48).

Huon's main illustration shows a standard .50-70 with the Benet inside centerfire priming. Another illustration shows the Cadet round, which is also an inside primed Benet round.

The inside-primed .50-70 isn't a rarity. It was still the standard priming system in use by the military until sometime in the 1880s, when deep brass drawing finally became advanced enough to make brass cartridges viable.

I've got .45-70 and .45 Schofield cartridges in my collection that are so primed.

 

[Bart Noir]

Jim, you've actually fired a .50-70??? Man, that sounds like fun.
Mike, thanks for the info. What book are you referencing, with this Huon personage?

Bart Noir
The older I get the more I like old things. Don't bring up women, though.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Bart,

It's called "Military Rifle and Machine Gun Cartridges" by Jean Huon, published in 1990.

It's out of print and can be hard to find, but it's an excellent resource.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

I have a 50-70, and i've fired it quite a few times, unfortunately, the barrel makes a washpipe look like a mirror, so i'm rebarrelling it to .45-70.

 

[4v50 Gary]

There were two versions of the 45-70 issued. One for infantry which had a heavier powder charge and the lighter one for the cavalry. Sgt. John Ryan, 7th Cav., got some infantry ones for his scoped Sharps rifle which he carried with him into the battle. He used it to help drive off the Indians who were shooting at them (quite effectively) from Sharpshooters' Ridge (500 yards away).

 

[Mike Irwin]

According to Huon, the Carbine version of the .45-70 was loaded with 44 grains of blackpowder, and had a C headstamp.

He doesn't specifically state that it was in a shorter, case, but it would have to have been. At least I think it would have to have.

 

[Jim K]

The whole .45-70 ammo situation gets confused. Leaving aside the type of case, the first issue was a 405 grain bullet with 70 grains of musket powder.

Then they issued carbine cartridges with the 405 grain bullet, but with only 55 (not 44) grains of powder.

Then FA developed an experimental long range, longer case, round with 80 grains of powder and a 500 grain bullet. This worked well for accuracy (if the shooter could stand it) but it was learned that the bullet was what gave the accuracy, not the extra powder, so the issue round was the original case length with 70 grains of powder, but keeping the 500 grain bullet. The carbine round continued to be loaded with the 405 grain bullet. At the same time (1892) FA suspended loading inside primed cases and went to drawn brass with "external" priming.

Previously, cases had been marked "Carbine" or "C" for carbine and "R" for rifle, but with the adoption of the 500 grain bullet for the rifle, the rounds were not of the same length and the case marking was dropped.

There were also multi-ball loads, gallery practice loads, and blanks. All the cases were the same length except for some of the blanks, which were shorter, and the above mentioned long range case. The .45-70 was also used in sub-caliber devices and AFAIK the blanks are still used in line throwing guns.

From the period 1878 to the end of WWI, the army depended mostly on contractors for .45-70 ammunition. The three major contractors were UMC, Winchester and USC Co. UMC used the headstamp "B" for Bridgeport, and USC used "L" for Lowell, MA, each indicating the location of the factory. Winchester used "W". (One usually reliable authority says the "B" stands for "brass", but this apparently is not correct, if only because the metal of the case is obvious.) UMC used the military headstamp for only a few years; USC through about 1880, and Winchester through 1892. Later ammunition generally used the standard commercial headstamps.

After reloadable cases were available, the army provided cases, bullets, powder, and primers, as well as loading tools, so that units could reload their own ammunition. Today, these reloading outfits are valuable collector's items.

HTH

Jim

 

[c_yeager]

I didnt think that you could safely download blackpowder cartridges? Dont you have to fill the case and then compress the charge when seating the bullet? To get a less powerful round wouldnt you need to essentially make a smaller (shorter) case? As i understand it open space in a black powder cartridge = bad news.

 

[Jim K]

News to me. There has been some concern about so-called "detonation" of powder in cases with less than half the normal charge, but that has been with smokeless powders and has, in any event, never been duplicated in experiments.

I can find no record that the carbine cartridge ever used any sort of filler, so I can only conclude that it worked OK.

Jim

 

[Mike Irwin]

"I didnt think that you could safely download blackpowder cartridges? Dont you have to fill the case and then compress the charge when seating the bullet? To get a less powerful round wouldnt you need to essentially make a smaller (shorter) case? As i understand it open space in a black powder cartridge = bad news."

Well, not really "BAD" news, but not good news.

With black powder the bullet must be in contract with the powder charge or else ringing of the barrel is very likely.

That means an actual ring, or bulge, is formed on the interior of the barrel.