seeking_coyotes
Member
I just ordered a BushMaster DCM AR15 for my 12 year old son who wants to get into DCM shoots. Any tips are appreciated. I reload...which brand .223 dies should I buy. What is a good powder?
new DCM shooter... help!
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wanderinwalker
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First off, welcome to the sport! It's always good to have new shooters, doubly so when there are juniors and their parents involved.
Second, if you haven't yet, find a Highpower clinic locally. These will go through the basics of how to use the rifle, the sling, the sights, the positions, how a match is run, what is expected, etc. Also, show up at a match and explain you're new shooters. You will get all plenty of good advice from other shooters, who will probably bend over backward to help you out. We all started somewhere.
Don't get to worried about equipment to start with. You'll want a decent sling like a Turner Saddlery match sling, unless you can find a cotton canvas GI sling. The nylon ones don't hold very well and barely work for Highpower shooting. A sweatshirt, some kind of mitt for your support hand and a matt to lay on for prone shooting should cover most of the basics.
Next, you might want to check on age restictions. I'm not 100% sure 12 is old enough to compete in CMP and NRA Highpower matches, but don't quote me on that. I attended my first Highpower clinic and matches when I was 14. (Now I help out at them!
) (Another side note, he IS old enough to shoot smallbore as a junior, if Highpower has to wait another year or two. Smallbore and air rifle are great ways to learn rifle shooting.)
To your last question, for .223 loads. I use LEE dies, always have. I am a Master-class shooter and I assure you the quality of my ammunition is not holding me back. For powder I use Hodgdon Varget as my primary, but I have "backup" loads worked up with Alliant Reloder 15. For bullets, try the Hornady 55gr FMJs for starting out. As you and your son's skills progress, step up to the 68gr Hornady or 69gr Nosler Custom Competition or Sierra MatchKings. Just buy whichever one you can get the better bulk buy on, they all shoot so close to the same it's not worth worrying about the difference. Don't overlook the generic 69gr HPBTs available from Wideners. They're decent shooting bullets out to 200 yards and fairly inexpensive.
For brass get some Winchester or processed Lake City. Either one should stand up to 5-6 loadings. I like CCI primers and Remington 7 1/2s work well with Reloder 15.
Any other specific questions, just ask as they come along. Once you get started and begin putting lead downrange, you'll start asking about working on the details of the sport.
Oh, and welcome to the sport!
Second, if you haven't yet, find a Highpower clinic locally. These will go through the basics of how to use the rifle, the sling, the sights, the positions, how a match is run, what is expected, etc. Also, show up at a match and explain you're new shooters. You will get all plenty of good advice from other shooters, who will probably bend over backward to help you out. We all started somewhere.
Don't get to worried about equipment to start with. You'll want a decent sling like a Turner Saddlery match sling, unless you can find a cotton canvas GI sling. The nylon ones don't hold very well and barely work for Highpower shooting. A sweatshirt, some kind of mitt for your support hand and a matt to lay on for prone shooting should cover most of the basics.
Next, you might want to check on age restictions. I'm not 100% sure 12 is old enough to compete in CMP and NRA Highpower matches, but don't quote me on that. I attended my first Highpower clinic and matches when I was 14. (Now I help out at them!
) (Another side note, he IS old enough to shoot smallbore as a junior, if Highpower has to wait another year or two. Smallbore and air rifle are great ways to learn rifle shooting.)To your last question, for .223 loads. I use LEE dies, always have. I am a Master-class shooter and I assure you the quality of my ammunition is not holding me back. For powder I use Hodgdon Varget as my primary, but I have "backup" loads worked up with Alliant Reloder 15. For bullets, try the Hornady 55gr FMJs for starting out. As you and your son's skills progress, step up to the 68gr Hornady or 69gr Nosler Custom Competition or Sierra MatchKings. Just buy whichever one you can get the better bulk buy on, they all shoot so close to the same it's not worth worrying about the difference. Don't overlook the generic 69gr HPBTs available from Wideners. They're decent shooting bullets out to 200 yards and fairly inexpensive.
For brass get some Winchester or processed Lake City. Either one should stand up to 5-6 loadings. I like CCI primers and Remington 7 1/2s work well with Reloder 15.
Any other specific questions, just ask as they come along. Once you get started and begin putting lead downrange, you'll start asking about working on the details of the sport.
Oh, and welcome to the sport!
seeking_coyotes
Member
Thank you...your information is helpful. Is Laupa brass worth the price.
Howard Roark
Member
Absolutely not. Especially for a service rifle. You will be better served with the Lake City brass. It will typically last longer and I've shot very good scores with mixed brass at 300 and 600 yards.
seeking_coyotes
Member
Is Lake City 223 or 5.56 headstamped? Where is a good place to buy?
redneckdan
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Midway was virgin lake city on sale right now. This is non-crimped brass. Sierra matchkings are a good bullet to start with. They have a proven performance record. A 69gr SMK over 25.0 gr of Win 748 is a pretty well respected load for the short course. If it does not work then most likely you have a gun problem. Good luck and don't be afraid to ask questions.
A thread with lots of pointers ... even fairly consistent opinions...
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=483466
Everything you'd ever want to know is in various stickies on the NM forum ...
http://www.usrifleteams.com/forums/index.php?act=idx
have to join to view but that's painless.
/B
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=483466
Everything you'd ever want to know is in various stickies on the NM forum ...
http://www.usrifleteams.com/forums/index.php?act=idx
have to join to view but that's painless.
/B
seeking_coyotes
Member
Bushmaster told me to only use 223 components in their DCM-XR rifle and the Lake City is 5.56?
redneckdan
Member
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- Jul 2, 2006
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- 480
Their concern is with hotter loaded 5.56 rounds designed for a different throat configuration. Mil brass can possible have a smaller case capacity than commercial, other than that it will work fine for your purposes.
P-32
Member
Because of your sons age I would look for a junior club where they shoot small bore. 1 it's cheaper and 2 small bore does everything for High Power. A couple of years of small bore and he will be ready to move into High Power with out many problems.
I reload for my AR which I shoot in matches.
I use match dies and seaters. I like the Forster seating die as it builds V/G ammo and is built like a tank. Redding has a simlar seating die which will not hold up to seating the 77 and 80 gr SMK's when using Varget or R-15. When seating a 77 or 80 gr SMK, you will be for sure making compressed loads. No big deal as they are not that compressed.
For sizing I use a Hornady match bushing die. You can use a different bushing to adjust how much tension the neck is on the bullet. I don't use any kind of a crimp.
I use once fired Lake City brass. I have gotten as many as 10 reloads from this brass. The best money spent thus far is a primer pocket uniformer. If you are going to use once fired L/C a primer pocket swage is in order. Some cut the crimp, but I like the feel of a swaged pocket. The Dillion swage is about the best there is and runs about $100.00. Winchester brass is also popular with the High Power people too. Winchester brass does not have these issues. I'm cheap and besides L/C works well in a AR.
For a full course, (out to 600 yards) I use the 77 gr SMK for the 200 and 300 yard lines. These have to fit the mag. For 600 yards I use a 80 gr. SMK. These are loaded long as you load these one at a time and no need to fit in the mag. The 80's are loaded .010 to .015 off the lands.
For reduced matches which are often held at 100 or 200 yards, I load some 52 or 53 SMK's and just use those for the entire match.
I use Reloder 15. Because this is a stick powder the powder throws won't throw a uniform charge every time. I use a Lyman DPS 1200 to weigh each charge. I throw a charge under weight and then have the DPS finish it off. For Primers I like the Remington 7 1/2 BR. CCI BR's will also work about as good.
I reload for my AR which I shoot in matches.
I use match dies and seaters. I like the Forster seating die as it builds V/G ammo and is built like a tank. Redding has a simlar seating die which will not hold up to seating the 77 and 80 gr SMK's when using Varget or R-15. When seating a 77 or 80 gr SMK, you will be for sure making compressed loads. No big deal as they are not that compressed.
For sizing I use a Hornady match bushing die. You can use a different bushing to adjust how much tension the neck is on the bullet. I don't use any kind of a crimp.
I use once fired Lake City brass. I have gotten as many as 10 reloads from this brass. The best money spent thus far is a primer pocket uniformer. If you are going to use once fired L/C a primer pocket swage is in order. Some cut the crimp, but I like the feel of a swaged pocket. The Dillion swage is about the best there is and runs about $100.00. Winchester brass is also popular with the High Power people too. Winchester brass does not have these issues. I'm cheap and besides L/C works well in a AR.
For a full course, (out to 600 yards) I use the 77 gr SMK for the 200 and 300 yard lines. These have to fit the mag. For 600 yards I use a 80 gr. SMK. These are loaded long as you load these one at a time and no need to fit in the mag. The 80's are loaded .010 to .015 off the lands.
For reduced matches which are often held at 100 or 200 yards, I load some 52 or 53 SMK's and just use those for the entire match.
I use Reloder 15. Because this is a stick powder the powder throws won't throw a uniform charge every time. I use a Lyman DPS 1200 to weigh each charge. I throw a charge under weight and then have the DPS finish it off. For Primers I like the Remington 7 1/2 BR. CCI BR's will also work about as good.
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seeking_coyotes
Member
What does SMK refer to?
redneckdan
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Sierra Match King
seeking_coyotes
Member
I just ordered the 500 pack of 69 grain SMK as a compromise bullet.
Jon Coppenbarger
Member
Sooo what problem did you encounter with you using Lapua? I always look to find out what problems others have encountered when I have never had a problem with them.
Is there something I should watch for? I have been using them for years and years and so has Mckenna and he has not had any problem that I know of.
I also have like 4 or 5 large 6 gallon metal cans with japanese once fired military brass have you had any problems when you are using that also? please let me know as I do not want to damage my rifle.
I also switched to lapua 77 grain bullets a few years back but have stayed with berger vlds at 600 and back.
Is there something I should watch for? I have been using them for years and years and so has Mckenna and he has not had any problem that I know of.
I also have like 4 or 5 large 6 gallon metal cans with japanese once fired military brass have you had any problems when you are using that also? please let me know as I do not want to damage my rifle.
I also switched to lapua 77 grain bullets a few years back but have stayed with berger vlds at 600 and back.
wanderinwalker and the others have given you good advice; however, I differ from wanderinwalker in his reloading recommendation. I think you should always shoot match grade ammunition, including using match projectiles. If you use anything less, you are cheating yourself. With good ammunition, you can remove that variable from the equation and concentrate on your shooting. If a round is out, you know you pointed it there and won't have the lingering doubt (or excuse) that it could have been the ammunition.
I run the state junior highpower program for Louisiana. Generally, I want the kids to be 14, but I am a softie so big 13 year olds can usually join. Every now and then a 12 year old tries. Some do ok, others struggle. If he isn't big enough for highpower, find a smallbore or airgun program. They are really good for training.
Dan
I run the state junior highpower program for Louisiana. Generally, I want the kids to be 14, but I am a softie so big 13 year olds can usually join. Every now and then a 12 year old tries. Some do ok, others struggle. If he isn't big enough for highpower, find a smallbore or airgun program. They are really good for training.
Dan
Jon, I don't think he said there was a problem with the Lapua, just that it wasn't worth the price. For a new shooter, he is correct. His money is best spent elsewhere. I made HM and Distinguished with LC. I now use Lapua for my 600 yard loads because I got a deal on some. I am not sure it gets me any more points, but it does make my 600 yard loads easier to keep segregated.
wanderinwalker
Member
Dan, I almost suggested as you did of just starting with the "good" bullets. I recommended the Hornady FMJs because a couple of my fellow shooters use them for offhand and sitting practice at 200 yards. I would definitely recommend steering as far clear as possible from any pull-down or Winchester FMJ bullets! BTDT with the Winchester 55gr FMJ, only good for plinking BIG steel plates... :banghead:
The only other suggestion I want to repeat to the OP is to get his son into smallbore! It really is a great way to learn rifle shooting basics; I just got back from a league shoot tonight. It's not necessarily cheaper than Highpower in the long-run (especially compared to Service Rifle), but most of the junior clubs I know are very well organized and can provide a lot of support and training for new shooters.
The only other suggestion I want to repeat to the OP is to get his son into smallbore! It really is a great way to learn rifle shooting basics; I just got back from a league shoot tonight. It's not necessarily cheaper than Highpower in the long-run (especially compared to Service Rifle), but most of the junior clubs I know are very well organized and can provide a lot of support and training for new shooters.
Howard Roark
Member
Jon,
dzelenka echos exactly my thoughts on Lapua brass. I too have managed to make HM and DR with LC and Winchester brass (when it was worth a toot).
There is nothing wrong with Lapua brass. Other than its price.
dzelenka echos exactly my thoughts on Lapua brass. I too have managed to make HM and DR with LC and Winchester brass (when it was worth a toot).
There is nothing wrong with Lapua brass. Other than its price.
Jon Coppenbarger
Member
My bottom line advice is to get the most out of what you are buying for what you will expect to recieve. What a few of us are discussing really is more of a opinion thing wayyyy down the line for what you are seeking to do.
ONCE fired usgi brass is a very good deal for you. sierra 69's for practice and short ranges like 300 yards and shorter loaded with something like reloader 15 or varget will give you everything you or anyone ever needs. but do use good primers like remington 7 1/2's.
If you are buying dies for a match rifle and want to get the most out of the loads the old saying goes buy once cry once.
if you poll most serious high power shooters you will get different opinions but it will mostly come down to either the use of redding dies or the combination of using the redding S die for sizing and the forester micrometer ultra competition seating die for seating.
If your youngster really likes the sport and wants to advance in the sport look up some of the matches in your state and start attending them. It is not my advice to set a age limit thing but it usually depends on the youth. Practice now will pay off in BIG dividends a few years from now.
PA has a great junior program and once you get involved with them alot of state junior progams can help you with finding equipment and reloading items like bullet tips.
Now when we won the whistler boy a few years back all of our junior teams were shooting Hornady bullets.
Now this last year I coached a nra rated marksman and sharpshooter to 8th place in the cmp now called freedom match for juniors at perry with sponsership bullet tips ( we are backed by hornady and sierra). The Califorinia teams were shooting bergers but YOU do not need them to win at the highest level as been proven year after year.
So a clue is to buy in bulk or to go in with someone else or a group to cut cost.
Like buying the brass in groups of 1k or more and bullets in boxes that hold 500 in one bulk box or just large groups and primers in at least lots of 5k. What you get is usually more consitant lots which will help you in consitant loading results
good luck and I hope to meet you at your son at the nationals in a few years as it is both fun and very rewarding.
good luck
ONCE fired usgi brass is a very good deal for you. sierra 69's for practice and short ranges like 300 yards and shorter loaded with something like reloader 15 or varget will give you everything you or anyone ever needs. but do use good primers like remington 7 1/2's.
If you are buying dies for a match rifle and want to get the most out of the loads the old saying goes buy once cry once.
if you poll most serious high power shooters you will get different opinions but it will mostly come down to either the use of redding dies or the combination of using the redding S die for sizing and the forester micrometer ultra competition seating die for seating.
If your youngster really likes the sport and wants to advance in the sport look up some of the matches in your state and start attending them. It is not my advice to set a age limit thing but it usually depends on the youth. Practice now will pay off in BIG dividends a few years from now.
PA has a great junior program and once you get involved with them alot of state junior progams can help you with finding equipment and reloading items like bullet tips.
Now when we won the whistler boy a few years back all of our junior teams were shooting Hornady bullets.
Now this last year I coached a nra rated marksman and sharpshooter to 8th place in the cmp now called freedom match for juniors at perry with sponsership bullet tips ( we are backed by hornady and sierra). The Califorinia teams were shooting bergers but YOU do not need them to win at the highest level as been proven year after year.
So a clue is to buy in bulk or to go in with someone else or a group to cut cost.
Like buying the brass in groups of 1k or more and bullets in boxes that hold 500 in one bulk box or just large groups and primers in at least lots of 5k. What you get is usually more consitant lots which will help you in consitant loading results
good luck and I hope to meet you at your son at the nationals in a few years as it is both fun and very rewarding.
good luck
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seeking_coyotes
Member
Thank you for your kind words and advice Jon!
If you check out
www.scharch.com
They sell fully processed military brass and even primed and processed military brass that just needs powder and a bullet for pretty cheap and saves you a lot of time.
www.scharch.com
They sell fully processed military brass and even primed and processed military brass that just needs powder and a bullet for pretty cheap and saves you a lot of time.
seeking_coyotes
Member
Small bore at my club requires kids come every tue and wed and with my boys other activities and only having him half the week doesnot make small bore possible for him.
A state junior director can get excellent prices on Sierras, including free 2nds.
My preferred dies are the Forster Ultra Benchrest. I do use a Redding micrometer seater for my short line on my Dillon (yes I know that the sleeve will crack sooner or later, but so far so good)
My preferred dies are the Forster Ultra Benchrest. I do use a Redding micrometer seater for my short line on my Dillon (yes I know that the sleeve will crack sooner or later, but so far so good)
Jon Coppenbarger
Member
Thats why I stopped using them back in like 2004. after cracking the second cone I decided to talk to redding personaly at the shot show back in 2005. They knew they where having a problem and proceded to tell me it was me using compressed loads.
When I mentioned that I do not have a problem with the forster seating die and his comment was we hardin our cones and my comment to him was maybe they should consider not doing that.
I would think using short line bullets (mag length) you should never (maybe?) have a problem. But alas this subject on dies and the problems with the redding seating dies has been discussed to great length since before the days of the Florida highpower forum. Yep Herman is doing fine.
All I like to do is let someone know when as you mentioned the problem is to head off somone have to spend money twichon something . it is to easy to just purchase the complete set of redding cometition dies and then run into a problem.
Thanks for pointing that problem out to him.
When I mentioned that I do not have a problem with the forster seating die and his comment was we hardin our cones and my comment to him was maybe they should consider not doing that.
I would think using short line bullets (mag length) you should never (maybe?) have a problem. But alas this subject on dies and the problems with the redding seating dies has been discussed to great length since before the days of the Florida highpower forum. Yep Herman is doing fine.
All I like to do is let someone know when as you mentioned the problem is to head off somone have to spend money twichon something . it is to easy to just purchase the complete set of redding cometition dies and then run into a problem.
Thanks for pointing that problem out to him.
seeking_coyotes
Member
So if I get the Forster Bench Rest Seater Die what do I get for the resizer die?
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