New Flint Lock Rifle

[ThomasT]

I won this Lyman Trade rifle off GB a few days ago. I got an email saying it shipped today so I guess by the first of next week it will be here. Now I have to gather some flints since this is my first flintlock gun. I have read that the Lyman guns have good sparking frizzens so it should be a reliable gun. Anyone else have one of these or any of the Investarms guns that are flinters?

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/780482022

 

[Iggy]

That Lyman Trade rifle is about a the best production gun you can get hold of.. Enjoy it.

 

[troy fairweather]

looks good have fun

 

[ThomasT]

I have added a dozen 5/8x3/4" flints to my cart at TOW. I also added one of the adjustable rear sights like comes on the GP rifle just in case my new rifle does not include it even though Lyman says they sell with both sights. I have some flint on hand I will try making a couple of test flints. I have made them before for my buds FL rifle when he was too friggin' cheap to buy any. They worked too.

I don't believe this gun has ever been shot. I only bought this because of the other thread started here asking for a reasonable priced traditional BP rifle and a Trade rifle was what I suggested. So I started looking at them on GB and found this gun. I didn't think it would sell so cheap. $320 total with shipping.

 

[Mn Fats]

Currently building a GPR based on some helpful suggestion here on THR... Not perfect but getting there. The barrel is in the oven for browning as i type. I am new to flintlocks as well so I'm still seeing what throws the best sparks. I'm not sure what the adjustable sights cost but I'd be willing to send you mine. The kit came with both and I'd like to keep the rifle traditional so I don't plan on using it.

 

[Officers'Wife]

All I can say is you lucky pup! Flintlocks are more fun than shopping or yelling at a misbehaving husband... Well, shopping anyway.

 

[ThomasT]

Hello Mn Fats. Your rifle looks good. Lots of sanding ain't it? There is a really good tutorial on building the GP rifle on youtube by Duelist1954. Its a several hour watch but worth the time. I have built a couple of the Investarms kits and they are excellent with generous wood if you know how to do relief carving and so forth. I don't so my guns were basic guns. The youtube video shows a few carvings that enhance the look.

The rear sight cost $28 at TOW. I would be interested in buying yours if you want to sell it. But think about it. They are nice sights that don't look too far off of the original fixed sights. My GP rifle shoots the Lee 320gr bullet and Lee Mini pretty well even with a 1/60 twist. But for anything over fifty yards a slight sight adjustment is needed. Easy to do with adjustable sight. Just sayin'...

 

[ThomasT]

Flintlocks are more fun than shopping or yelling at a misbehaving husband...

I don't have one of those and doubt I ever will. I am always on the receiving end and it must be fun for you girls. I hear it all the time. And I never misbehave.

 

[Mn Fats]

Hello Mn Fats. Yiur rifle looks good. Lots of sanding ain't it? There is a really good tutorial on building the GP rifle on youtube by Duelist1954. Its a several hour watch but worth the time. I have built a couple of the Investarms kits and they are excellent with generous wood if you know how to do relief carving and so forth. I don't so my guns were basic guns. The youtube video shows a few carvings that enhance the look.

The rear sight cost $28 at TOW. I would be interested in buying yours if you want to sell it. But think about it. They are nice sights that don't look too far off of the original fixed sights. My GP rifle shoots the Lee 320gr bullet and Lee Mini pretty well even with a 1/60 twist. But for anything over fifty yards a slight sight adjustment is needed. Easy to do with adjustable sight. Just sayin'...

Yep I watched his videos. And YES a lot of sanding. I chose sanding for the stock over carving for the most part. Not due to laziness or anything but there was just something about the sharp edges on the pics I've seen that didn't appeal to me. Just had a "mass produced" type factory look. Even if my edges aren't as defined around the lock and other side, and less historically accurate due to the roundish shape, I like it that way. That's the beauty of a kit!

I plan to sight in this weekend with the standard sights. If they hit well for me, I'll send you my adjustables free of charge. No payment necessary. I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[ThomasT]

Mn Fats that is very generous of you. I hope they send the adjustable sight with the rifle. If they don't I will let you know. And i am more than happy to pay you for it. I am going to pay someone. It may as well be a fellow shooter.

 

[Mn Fats]

Mn Fats that is very generous of you. I hope they send the adjustable sight with the rifle. If they don't I will let you know. And i am more than happy to pay you for it. I am going to pay someone. It may as well be a fellow shooter.

$5 shipping is all I'd take. Speaking of fellow shooters, I'd like to see them go to someone who will put them to use rather than stuff em in a drawer some place. Pm me if yours doesn't show up with the adjustables. Anyways good luck with your Lyman!

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Well that's about a $460 rifle, retail. So you dun good. The trade rifle is a 1:48 twist, and will shoot roundball as well as conical. It should shoot both well enough for targets and big game.

You may want to order a thin, silver, front sight post from Track of The Wolf. https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/874/6/FS-TC-TTB Italian muzzle loading rifles more often than not, come with a rather thick front sight, and a bullseye on a target is like looking at a nickle balanced on the top of a 2x4. So to get the most out of the accuracy you can go to a thinner sight, and get much better results. Plus it's silver so reflects light better in the woods, and in low light. The tall one is used, for you first to get your windage, left/right correct. Then you use a hand file to slowly remove silver from the top, by filing only lengthwise, to raise your point of aim until you are "on" at your preferred max range. THEN all you do is practice.

I'd recommend you start out with 3Fg black powder (since the powder substitutes are notorious for poor ignition in flinters) and use it for BOTH the main charge and the priming charge. It keeps thinks simpler when you only use one powder for both, and I always found 4Fg in any of my flintlocks simply soaked up moisture from the air, and didn't help ignition. I'd also recommend you simply use a round ball, patched with linen and a moderate charge of 70-80 grains of powder. Plenty of impact on deer out to 100 yards. YES you will meet fellows who shoot .50 caliber, 385 grain conicals with 110 grains of powder, but what you won't see is the huge bruises they get, and the flinch from the recoil that they develop, all the while the deer not knowing it's any deader than when hit with a round ball with moderate load.

OH Italian factory rifles are also notorious for crappy quality ramrods when they come with wooden rods, so I'd suggest you get a couple 3/8" rods, and cut them to length and sand (they are always a bit too fat) and stain them https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/833/1/RAMROD-6-10-I , keeping the original for when the rifle is displayed..., if you want to keep the historic look in the field. Otherwise a Delrin ramrod https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/567/1/RAMROD-286-LYM is much much less prone to breaking, and you'd only need the one.

LD

 

[whughett]

All I can say is you lucky pup! Flintlocks are more fun than shopping or yelling at a misbehaving husband... Well, shopping anyway.

After 54 years I've gone deaf hearing and my aids have a volume control button.

 

[paul harm]

I too would shoot just the RB and with non adjustable sights. In 45 years or so of shooting MLers I've used only fixed sights without any problems. You just learn to hold a little high or low, or raise/lower the front sight. With all my rifles and trade guns, once the gun is sighted in I've never had to change the settings. My 54 home made Hawken flinter is 43 years old and still shoots to the same point if aim. Adjustable sights are way over rated and the one you're getting didn't have adjustable sights back in the day. I think you'd be happier keeping it period correct. JMHO

 

[ThomasT]

$5 shipping is all I'd take. Speaking of fellow shooters, I'd like to see them go to someone who will put them to use rather than stuff em in a drawer some place. Pm me if yours doesn't show up with the adjustables. Anyways good luck with your Lyman!

Thanks Mn Fats. I will let you know if I get the sight with the gun or not.

You may want to order a thin, silver, front sight post from Track of The Wolf. https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/874/6/FS-TC-TTBItalian muzzle loading rifles more often than not, come with a rather thick front sight, and a bullseye on a target is like looking at a nickle balanced on the top of a 2x4. So to get the most out of the accuracy you can go to a thinner sight, and get much better results. Plus it's silver so reflects light better in the woods, and in low light. The tall one is used, for you first to get your windage, left/right correct. Then you use a hand file to slowly remove silver from the top, by filing only lengthwise, to raise your point of aim until you are "on" at your preferred max range. THEN all you do is practice.

I thinned the front sight on my Lyman GP rifle when I bought it many years ago. And the front sight on this new rifle does look thick and I will as least thin it down and reblue. It needed I can file an angle flat on the back of the sight and paint it it or solder a thin brass piece to the angle to pick up more light. The Pedersoli rifle I mentioned I bought a while back has the silver sight on it and it does work like you describe.

And on most of my BP rifles I have now I have replaced the wood rods with the Delrin rods. I used to buy them from Mountain State muzzle loading premade. I think its October Country that sells the rod uncut so you can make your own. I have made plenty. I just made one for the new CVA pistol I built and posted here and I used brown leather dye to stain the rod. That worked really well. My stock stain wouldn't touch it but the leather dye worked great.

Adjustable sights are way over rated and the one you're getting didn't have adjustable sights back in the day. I think you'd be happier keeping it period correct. JMHO

You may be right. My rifle with an adjustable sight would look out of place while I walk around in the woods with my green canvas pants and camo T-Shirt. Lol. Just having fun with you. One of my favorite BP rifles has fixed sights and I killed my only BP deer kill with it. I built that gun from a kit and and it was perfectly sighted in the first time I shot it and have never touched the sights since 1995.

Thanks for all the help and suggestions they are appreciated very much.

 

[ThomasT]

I had almost forgot about it but on my first BP rifle, A Cabelas 54 Hawken I didn't like the bead style sight that came on it so I made a new sight for it from brass keys. Remember when keys were made of real brass?

Anyway I made a brass base to fit the dovetail of the rifle. Then I cut out a blade and left a tab on the bottom. I drilled a hole in the base and peened the tab to hold the sight then ran a bead of solder down each side of the blade. It made a much better sight than came on the rifle. My bud bought that gun from me and still uses it today with the sight I made for it.

 

[Venom007]

Flintlock half stock plains rifles were all but unheard of.

If you don't care about the history, the Lyman trade rifle is quite good.

 

[ThomasT]

Venom you are most likely correct. I have seen a lot of half stock percussion guns but can't remember ever seeing a half stock flint plains rifle. No matter to me. I am not living a fantasy life. I just like the idea of a flintlock to play with. And this was too good of a deal to pass on. I can shoot this a bit and if I don't like the lock system I should be able to sell it for close to what I paid for it.

As for history I study it all the time. I just got my new book "The Muzzle Loading Caplock Rifle" in the mail last week. I bought what is supposed to be the best book on the life of Daniel Boone a few months ago and it has already been read and waiting to be read again. I have the complete Time-Life Civil War series. And I have read every word in them. Plus over half of the Old West series from the same people. All read. I have read every American history book my local library has on the shelves. I have watched most of the history videos on you tube. The Jamestown and Pilgrim/Puritan stories fascinate me. Plus all of the Tales Of The Gun series.

I like the Eastern Longhunter time period but like the Mountain Period better. I have several classic MM books I have also read. Many times.

Yes indeed, I care about history. I used to go to Rendezvous back in the 1990s. I don't think we have them around here anymore. The guy I went with died back in 2004. I would have to buy new clothes. All my old clothes shrunk.

 

[ThomasT]

I just looked my auction again on GB and noticed the gun comes with the box. I bet the adjustable rear sight is in the box. If I order flints from TOW I may go ahead and order the Silver front sight like Loyalist Dave suggested.

I told one of my buds who bought my T/C Hawken from me about my new rifle and said he has several flints on hand I can have. He bought a big box full of BP stuff and the flints were in the box.

 

[Mn Fats]

Flintlock half stock plains rifles were all but unheard of.

If you don't care about the history, the Lyman trade rifle is quite good.

Some of the Hawken brothers first half stock rifles were flintlock. Remember they started building in the early '20s or so. Then when percussion caps became more widespread they switched over. So yes, a half stock plains rifle in flintlock can technically be historically correct as rare as they were.

 

[Mn Fats]

The earliest J. & S. Hawken rifle order that can be documented dates from 1831, and in that year and the one following, orders for 18 rifles were placed with the company. Both half- and full-stock models were available. Some of these were flintlocks, but percussion arms account for the bulk of their production. -nramuseum.org

So, rare but none the less the history is still there and from everything I've read, Lyman did a nearly spot on job recreating the Hawken.

 

[Venom007]

The earliest J. & S. Hawken rifle order that can be documented dates from 1831, and in that year and the one following, orders for 18 rifles were placed with the company. Both half- and full-stock models were available. Some of these were flintlocks, but percussion arms account for the bulk of their production. -nramuseum.org

So, rare but none the less the history is still there and from everything I've read, Lyman did a nearly spot on job recreating the Hawken.

No, they didn't, if you're referring to the Lyman "Trade Rifle" that is. The Lyman Great Plains Rifle, if that's what you are meaning, is a far better J&S Hawken rifle copy but it is still far from perfect both externally and internally.

The Lyman Trade Rifle, while great shooters, are a modern style that shares the same looks and layout as stuff like the CVAs and Traditions. They simply do not look like period caplock rifle, the similarities are at best vaguely similar.

 

[Mn Fats]

My bad venom. This whole time I skipped over the "trade rifle" part and pictured GPR. I'll have to Google Lymans trade rifle. Sorry man.

 

[ThomasT]

I didn't buy this rifle because I wanted a J&S style Hawken. I have a Great Plains rifle already if thats the look I was going for I bought sometime back in the mid 1990s. And way back then I knew it wasn't a true replica of a Hawken brothers rifle. Its a plains rifle in the spirit of the rifles used by hunters and mountain men of the late 1840s and later years. The "Trade Rifle" is more in the spirit of the trade guns sold to the Indians and fur companies to be guns given to the company men who worked for the fur companies and were supplied with the guns, traps and other supplies they needed to trap furs. And even then its not an accurate replica of those guns.

A better replica is a Pedersoli built gun of the Hawken. They have several versions and none come in flintlock. Or even better a TVM Leman Trade Rifle. Full stocked and available in flint or percussion. But at $1250 its just not on my radar. http://www.tennesseevalleymuzzleloading.com/leman-rifle

I bought this rifle not to replicate a certain time period but because the Lyman flintlock has a reputation of having a good sparking frizzen. I like the sturdier stock over the Kentucky style rifle stock. I like that it sorta looks like a rifle from the 1840s and on up but the fact that it is a fantasy rifles does not matter to me.

Because of its heavier stock its more like a military grade rifle. And its rifle that I can make my own flints to spark it, I have done that before and I can make my own powder if I had to. I have 10 pounds of Potassium Nitrate on hand now just for that purpose. Not that I really think that the world will reach the point where I have to survive with a rifle like this. I just like knowing I can.

I really bought this gun because it was a good deal. I didn't have a flintlock and it looks like fun to mess with. And thats the whole thing in a nutshell.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Good for you! There will be a learning curve as you figure things out. It's all in having fun with it. Enjoy.