New guy new reloader need some help

[xTimberwolfx]

Hello

I've been lurking around here for the past year. This site seems to have the most helpful people. I need some help.

I just starting reloading. I picked up a Co-Ax press and 500 rounds of range brass. Just to experiment with and learn the art of reloading. I picked up a set of Lee .223 dies and a Lee decapper. I promptly decapped and full length resized no problem.

I decided I wanted to shoot .222 Remington I purchased a set of Lee .222 Remington dies

Here is the problem




for the life of me I can not figure out why the Lee die is doing this to the neck.
I have purchased Hornady and Wilson dies, no problem with them. In fact I have purchased 2 sets of Lee's .222 Remington die sets and both are doing the exact same thing.

Ideas?
Thanks for your time.

 

[adcoch1]

Is that 222 brass or 223? It appears as if you have the die cranked down too far. Try removing the expander and see what you get. Also what lube are you using?

 

[xTimberwolfx]

Imperial resizing wax and yes I am resizing .223 however I also took a new .222 case and had the same results.

I have removed the expander and this damage does not occur. How then does the neck get sized correctly? Why would an expander be needed on any full length die?

 

[Milt1]

From what I'm looking at you're resizing die is screwed down to far, as mentioned above, which is scrunching the case neck down as shown in your pictures.

 

[Ireload2]

The Lee design is closed on top by that stupid plug that clamps the decapper. Lee's dies are too short for the long necked case you get when you form .222 brass from .223 brass.
Trim your cases first , form with the decapper assy removed, or buy a different but longer brand of .222 dies.
A far better way to start is form your cases with a RCBS .222 trim die.
Once formed you will have a very long neck to trim off. After trimming FL resize and anneal the neck and shoulder. Then load and shoot.

 

[xTimberwolfx]

That explains a lot

No wonder the shoulders were not getting bumped back enough.

Thank you So much for solving that mystery. That explains everything You have no idea how this was driving me crazy

 

[edwardware]

I form my .222 from .223, and it's not really a first time out sort of operation. Lubing correctly, sufficiently, but not egregiously, is critical. I think it's almost impossible without annealing shoulders first, and you'll need to turn necks after sizing.

I'm happy to walk you through it, but it's not simple.

 

[WestKentucky]

Why 2 sets of 222? I'm confused by that.

To answer the question of why you need an expander...
Cases have to have significant neck tension to have a good friction hold on the bullet. Crimping adds a lot more grip between the case and bullet, but a lot of folks rely solely on neck tension. To get neck tension back you have to resize the blown out portion of the neck to slightly smaller diameter that the bullet you are seating, so a .224 bullet gets crammed into a .222 hole. To make sure the neck is uniformly round, straight, and unbuggered they go further undersized intentionally then expand it back out to the final size.

 

[xTimberwolfx]

Thought I had a bad set of dies.

I guess the Hornady is longer so that it’s not cramming the neck into the body

 

[xTimberwolfx]

I form my .222 from .223, and it's not really a first time out sort of operation. Lubing correctly, sufficiently, but not egregiously, is critical. I think it's almost impossible without annealing shoulders first, and you'll need to turn necks after sizing.

I'm happy to walk you through it, but it's not simple.

I would really appreciate it if you would share your knowledge of converting .223. I like pushing myself to learn.

 

[stringnut]

I would really appreciate it if you would share your knowledge of converting .223. I like pushing myself to learn.

Learn the basics first. It won't take long to get a good feel for what needs to be done. Forming cases is useful operation and can be a lot of fun also. However, several things can go wrong. If the cases end up not useable that's one thing. The can end up being dnagerous due to excessive neck thickness, incorrect headspce, work hardening etc. You dont want to split a case or blow up a rifle. Even a split case or blown primer is more fun than you want.

 

[xTimberwolfx]

Learn the basics first. It won't take long to get a good feel for what needs to be done. Forming cases is useful operation and can be a lot of fun also. However, several things can go wrong. If the cases end up not useable that's one thing. The can end up being dnagerous due to excessive neck thickness, incorrect headspce, work hardening etc. You dont want to split a case or blow up a rifle. Even a split case or blown primer is more fun than you want.

I certainly don't want that to happen. I try to be extremely careful I don't like to assume anything if I'm not certain I always double check I don't want to harm myself or others. I don't mind spending $$ on the correct tool. Believe me I learned the hard way remodeling several homes that I have owned over the years.

I don't even have a rifle that will shoot .222 yet. I know that what I want to shoot and I want to learn whatever I need to. I have only been shooting 22 lr and decided I want to control the quality of the ammo and learn precision shooting. That's the overall goal. One step at a time.

 

[edwardware]

I like pushing myself to learn.

Great! This is a good experiment to learn on. Based on my experience with .223 -> .222 I can say:
1) Get good lube, I suggest lanolin (but try whatever you have). You need to lube the current neck and the current body below the future shoulder location, but NOT the current shoulder and future shoulder. If you get lube in the wrong places you'll get lube wrinkles caused by incompressible lube being forced out of the shoulder in the die.
2) Annealing the parts of the parent case that will be reshaped (from the current shoulder down to future shoulder) will reduce resizing force. It may be possible to skip this, but your failure rate will rise. I anneal before and after reforming.
3) For a first pass, remove the decapping stem from your .222 FL die. This will reduce extraction force and simplify punching the brass out from the top you don't use enough lube and stick a case
4) You can't damage a steel die with a brass case. You might break an aluminum press, but not the die.
5) If resizing force is especially high, the stupid high-primer relief cut in most shellholders will leave an impression in the head of the reformed case. Use more lube, and/or dress heads with a file when you're done. If resizing force is really high, start with the sizing die backed out a couple turns so that the press is camming over as the shoulder is pushed; screw the die in a half-turn at a time until you're done, using the cam-over to successively move the shoulder.
6) Once the first pass is done, reinstall the expander ball, and be sure to lube inside the necks well.
7) You can't trim the brass with a piloted trimmer until you've expanded the necks.
8) You will need to neck turn to reduce the material in the former shoulder-now neck area. In theory inside neck turning is better, but requires cartidge-specific tooling. I outside neck turn and only require a caliber specific pilot.

Start with 5 cases, go slow, and by the time you've got 20 done you'll understand a lot more about how sizing tooling works.

 

[xTimberwolfx]

Great! This is a good experiment to learn on. Based on my experience with .223 -> .222 I can say:
1) Get good lube, I suggest lanolin (but try whatever you have). You need to lube the current neck and the current body below the future shoulder location, but NOT the current shoulder and future shoulder. If you get lube in the wrong places you'll get lube wrinkles caused by incompressible lube being forced out of the shoulder in the die.
2) Annealing the parts of the parent case that will be reshaped (from the current shoulder down to future shoulder) will reduce resizing force. It may be possible to skip this, but your failure rate will rise. I anneal before and after reforming.
3) For a first pass, remove the decapping stem from your .222 FL die. This will reduce extraction force and simplify punching the brass out from the top you don't use enough lube and stick a case
4) You can't damage a steel die with a brass case. You might break an aluminum press, but not the die.
5) If resizing force is especially high, the stupid high-primer relief cut in most shellholders will leave an impression in the head of the reformed case. Use more lube, and/or dress heads with a file when you're done. If resizing force is really high, start with the sizing die backed out a couple turns so that the press is camming over as the shoulder is pushed; screw the die in a half-turn at a time until you're done, using the cam-over to successively move the shoulder.
6) Once the first pass is done, reinstall the expander ball, and be sure to lube inside the necks well.
7) You can't trim the brass with a piloted trimmer until you've expanded the necks.
8) You will need to neck turn to reduce the material in the former shoulder-now neck area. In theory inside neck turning is better, but requires cartidge-specific tooling. I outside neck turn and only require a caliber specific pilot.

Start with 5 cases, go slow, and by the time you've got 20 done you'll understand a lot more about how sizing tooling works.

Thanks for laying those steps out . I will give it a go. Do you recommend a neck turning tool?

 

[edwardware]

Do you recommend a neck turning tool?

I've been happy with RCBS's neck turning tool. I've run a couple hundred .223, .222 Remington reforms, and .35 Remington reforms, and been happy.

 

[Skgreen]

RE: I don't even have a rifle that will shoot .222 yet. I know that what I want to shoot and I want to learn whatever I need to. I have only been shooting 22 lr and decided I want to control the quality of the ammo and learn precision shooting. That's the overall goal. One step at a time.

Lotsa variables in making ammo,,, Even more in making precision ammo...

Reloading involves 'quite a few' different things that you will learn over time, including learning by your mistakes. (You'll make plenty. We all have.)

While I admire your ambition,,,,,, In all honesty,,, (and when taking into account you don't own any .222 firearms), you options in caliber are pretty much 'wide open' at this point, I'd recommend you consider starting with a 'more common' caliber,,,

(223 is about as inexpensive as you can get with centerfire,,, As easy as any to learn, with abundant choices readily available in both components and firearms, as well as a huge/ current 'knowledge base' as there are literally millions of folks shooting 223 today. 222 is a whole nuther story,,,)

Keep it simple, and you'll 'get there' quicker,,,, One step at a time,,,,,,,

 

[kwg020]

Another option is to get a .222 trim die and remove/cut off anything that sticks out above the trim die then use your resizer.
kwg

 

[WestKentucky]

As much as I like the 222 I can’t fathom a reason to pick it over a whole host of other cartridges. 223 is cheaper and you will have much much much better variety of tested load recipes, not to mention brass availability. If absolute precision is your goal, you are handicapping yourself to a lightweight bullet that will move around a lot in wind, and the BC isn’t great so it suffers at long range. You would be better served with a bigger, more popular, more available round like 243 win. If your like me and like more obscure stuff then I would absolutely be looking at 243Ai.

But then again, if you want a 222 then by all means jump right in. It’s not a bad caliber for several different purposes. I do think It wise to trim before forming. It may not be worthwhile, but it may be just the thing to do in buying one of the baby chop saws harbor freight sells for about 30 bucks. People who shoot 300bo use them to cut brass down quickly, I can’t see a reason it wouldn’t work well for 222 if your willing to build a halfway decent locating jig. Then you are just going to be deburring the cases and chamfering them, seems it would make forming easier since your not grossly long.

 

[xTimberwolfx]

I was going to purchase a 223 rifle just because its cheaper and how readily available the brass is. Precision is my goal but I only plan on shooting at the range which is max 300 yards. Normally 200 yds. Don't really want to shoot anything over 55 grains. Plus everybody and their brother shoots 223.

222 I can use all of the components of 223 including the cheap brass and all of the bullets below 55 grain. Exactly what I'm after plus some people opinion is the longer neck of the 222 lead it to being more accurate. Now, can I shoot as well as the rifle? probably not but I want to work on it. How far down the rabbit hole do I want to go? just far enough to be good. Not in competition with anyone else just myself. Plus it a different caliber that what others shoot. Just a little bit more work to make the cartridge, which I find interesting.

 

[Nature Boy]

I was going to purchase a 223 rifle just because its cheaper and how readily available the brass is. Precision is my goal but I only plan on shooting at the range which is max 300 yards. Normally 200 yds. Don't really want to shoot anything over 55 grains. Plus everybody and their brother shoots 223.

222 I can use all of the components of 223 including the cheap brass and all of the bullets below 55 grain. Exactly what I'm after plus some people opinion is the longer neck of the 222 lead it to being more accurate. Now, can I shoot as well as the rifle? probably not but I want to work on it. How far down the rabbit hole do I want to go? just far enough to be good. Not in competition with anyone else just myself. Plus it a different caliber that what others shoot. Just a little bit more work to make the cartridge, which I find interesting.

Something to consider. Get a 1:12 twist .223 bolt gun and sling those light bullets fast and accurate. Spend time building your skill and knowledge on how to make consistent ammo and if you still have the itch for .222 you can scratch it down the road after you've cut your teeth on the .223

The .223 is an inherently accurate cartridge at the distances you're shooting

 

[Hokie_PhD]

Something to consider. Get a 1:12 twist .223 bolt gun and sling those light bullets fast and accurate. Spend time building your skill and knowledge on how to make consistent ammo and if you still have the itch for .222 you can scratch it down the road after you've cut your teeth on the .223

The .223 is an inherently accurate cartridge at the distances you're shooting

I was wondering why anyone would want to start reloading on a cartridge that isn't very common. To me it seems that going with the 223 over 222 would make sense just from a support sense. In other words and you point out. Learn the basics. Get in good habits then build from there.

In my case I started with 9mm then added 223. Now not only being the most common calibers they're also what I shoot most. But I've added 45 and only now and thinking of adding 300 Blackout.

Personally, I'd suggest OP rethink his goals and objectives. If he insists on staying with 222 for now, then I hope he can find folks that use and reload that caliber to help him and get connected with them as it would really help speed his learning curve.

 

[Skgreen]

Timber,

I certainly agree that everyone and their brother shoots 223. Myself included!

It's also quite evident at virtually any public range, there are many shooting 223 (or 5.56) that aren't accurate and it's not necessarily due to their firearm or the caliber they've chosen,,,

Not sure what it's like where your at, or if you even shoot at a public range. Unfortunately, I have no real choice but to shoot at a public range, and it's all but guaranteed on each visit I'll see high priced equipment being used with ammo the firearm apparently doesn't like,,, and / or,, the shooter simply can't shoot for sh*t,,,

I was next to 'something resembling that' this past weekend. Some big name equipment, silencer, stickers all over his stuff,,,
Couldn't get below 2 MOA @ 100 for the life of him, and he was worried about how soon he could get his gal to qualify for the 200 yd area,,,,

I had my old 'Farmer' Savage, (not really sure how many thousand rounds down the pipe), T-36 scope, Choate stock, consistently shooting 3/4 moa with my pet loads.

Also heard same guy indicating he had a barrel on order from some 'worlds record' manufacturer,,, Some ridiculous "0.0X MOA!".

I sat there for a moment and wondered how he was gonna feel when that new barrel won't shoot for him any better than what he already has,,,.

I figured "At least he'll have another sticker for his collection", smiled a bit, and went back to shooting my old 'Farmer' gun,,,

Whatever makes you happy is really all that matters,,,,

 

[xTimberwolfx]

Thank you all for your input. I understand that whatever I decide that the collective wisdom of the group of knowledgeable re-loaders are to be found here.

I have 3 reloading manuals and have read them. I still have them out while doing anything with reloading. I'm not one to takes someones "pet" loads and expect it to work for me. Nor do I subscribe like one reloader at work to always go max.

Thanks again I'm looking forward to asking you all questions on whatever I come across

 

[Hokie_PhD]

Thank you all for your input. I understand that whatever I decide that the collective wisdom of the group of knowledgeable re-loaders are to be found here.

I have 3 reloading manuals and have read them. I still have them out while doing anything with reloading. I'm not one to takes someones "pet" loads and expect it to work for me. Nor do I subscribe like one reloader at work to always go max.

Thanks again I'm looking forward to asking you all questions on whatever I come across

Most of the folks here are helpful. The only “problem”is that there are so many great folks with so much knowledge and ways of doing things sometimes getting so many options gets a bit overwhelming. So it’s why I say find the basics that work for you and then slowly build your skills from there.

You’re wise not to follow your coworkers approach. I’ve never understood the obsession of max load and pushing past it. Granted I know some are going for as much velocity as they can get, but it seems a bit pointless to me in most cases. Good velocity and accuracy seems to make more sense to me. But to each his/her own.

Anyway, welcome and welcome to a great hobby. I don’t know about you but I actually enjoy reloading more than shooting. But that’s another discussion.