New Kimber 84m Horror Story!

[gunslinger15]

I just wanted to tell my Kimber horror story.
Last week I bought Never fired, beautiful Kimber 84m classic in 308win off gunbroker. I anxiously awaited the arrival this handy little riffle all week, Dreaming of the mountains of deer I would take with it over the next several decades. Friday it arrived I installed my new VXII 3-9x40 and headed to my range. Deer season starts in two weeks and I was chomping at the bit to get her sighted in and comfortable shooting it.

I bought two boxes of hornady's superformance 150gr SST rounds. Twelve rounds in I had her grouping very nicely probably 3/4in. I was so excited this was just the light quality riffle I had been hoping for..... until round 13... I loaded the round closed the bolt and put the riffle on safe. I snugged the gun up to my shoulder flipped the saftey off and BANG!!!!!!!!!!!!! I looked at my buddy in shock. Had I accidentaly some how touched the trigger? I was about 99% sure I hadnt. I loaded round number 14 nervousy... put the riffle on safe held it frim to my shoulder and flipped off the saftey BANG!!!!!!! I unloaded the riffle and cocked it touched the saftey off and the firing pin dropped yet again. It did this 6 more times in a row then not again the rest of the night I was sick to my stomach.

Monday morning I called Kimber. After 30 min on hold I talked to a customer service rep. Very unhelpful. I explained the situation and he assured me " there is no way for that action to even do that, but he would look into it and get back with me however it would not be covered under warranty". By Tuesday afternoon I had still not heard anything. I called kimber again ( this time only 15 min on hold) a lady took down my number and said someone would call me back shortly.... still waiting on that call...... So I called my buddy who is a gunsmith he advised me to check the sear engagement screw.

20 min later.. I have the screw adjusted properly.. its fixed.... the trigger now has a very slight creep but I can live with that...I cant live with a failing safety and killing myself or a hunting partner.

Needless to say I am less then impressed with kimber customer service, who evidently has no problem having a catastrophic riffle out in the world. For the cost of these riffles used or not I expect the company to stand behind their product. Especially in this circumstance. I also learned a valuable lesson.. never ever ever trust a saftey. Thank god I swear by good muzzle control.

 

[FITASC666]

Kimber 8400 Mag

gunsligner15,

I'm shocked!!! I have a 8400 in a 300 Win Mag and I must share that it is the most pleasant hunting rifle I have owned. I've harvested yet another moose 2 weeks ago and shoot it regularly at the range. In my case, as is with your rifle, it is a real tack driver. It loves the Scirocco, A-Frame and AccuBonds.

You have me worried though. I'm considering another Kimber for deer hunting, this time the Montana in a 270 Win or .308. Having searched for reviews these past days, it looks like a Kimber affair is Love or Hate. Many reviews are negative in the accuracy department and with feeding problems; the latter related mostly to the short mags.

As for the service, well that isn't comforting either. I've had issues with other manufacturers and I can say that only a few really stand by you. I'll mention Ruger and Remington as A class customer service.

Maybe I'll look at the Ruger Sporter again....

Thanks for sharing your experience.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

These two things go together:

I bought Never fired, beautiful Kimber 84m classic in 308win off gunbroker.

So I called my buddy who is a gunsmith he advised me to check the sear engagement screw.

I think you got a gun someone else had tampered with -- hence the incorrect sear engagement.

Despite that, I am shocked at Kimber's lackadasical response -- and you can tell them I said that. It's this kind of behavior that costs gun companies customers and ultimately causes them to fail.

 

[Slamfire]

Another reason to distrust over ride triggers. They are just trap door mechanisms, knock the prop out and the thing falls.

That teeny, tiny bit of sear engagement is all that stands between you and a sear over ride.



The good old military two stage trigger, you could butt stroke and bayonet someone without worrying about about the sear jarring off.

I took a look at Kimber 84M's at Kimber's web site.

http://www.kimberamerica.com/rifles/model-84m

Looks like it has the three position safety which cams back and holds the firing pin in place. I like that type of safety, maybe not as positive as a Mauser, but still it positively holds the firing pin. It is far better than any sear blocking safety.

What I suspect is that the safety cammed the firing pin back from the sear. Maybe only hundredth's or thousandth's of an inch. When you took the safety off it went forward and hit the sear. You had a sear over ride. I used to see it all the time in target rifles wherein the shooter was trying to get the lightest trigger pull with the least movement. I believe someone had adjusted your trigger so there was insufficient engagement surfaces. Then I suspect the previous owner also backed off the pull weight adjustment spring, the effect of these actions it took very little force to create a sear over ride.

In my opinion, Kimber customer service was technically incompetent and totally lacking in judgement. The person you spoke to was clueless and did not take appropriate action. Your trigger was dangerous at the time you talked to the Kimber Customer Service Clown.

Still, a trigger is a mechanical device. If it is out of adjustment it is going to fail.

Adjust it, work the bolt as fast as you can, slap the stock in your hand, drop the safety on the sear, it if holds, go use it.

I think the Kimber Classic is a sharp looking rifle. Don't give up on it because of an improperly adjusted trigger. Get your trigger set up correctly, shoot it. If it does not shoot well, then give up on it.

 

[mshootnit]

That's one reason you should never rely on a mechanical safety. I never walk around with one in the chamber and the rifle on safe. I don't give a darned what they all do on TV or in the magazines.

Quite frankly I don't know when I would NEED a safety. If the rifle were mine I probly would still not have discovered the problem. When I work on a trigger I do however perform the safety function check as well as a drop check.

Also the technician was flat wrong in saying that this couldn't happen.

 

[gamestalker]

It sounds like a case of one that slipped by quality control after the sear had been adjusted. I do all my own trigger work and am very aware of what happens when you don't dry fire, dry cock, and everything else possible to check sear engagement for solid reliable engagement. Drop testing is also another step I use just to make sure nothing is going to go bang before it's supposed to. There should be no reason you can't have zero creep and reliable sear engagement too.

 

[Welding Rod]

Wow, that sucks.

Customer service folks tend to be much more helpful if you politely ask them for their name, and then their last name, before the conversation starts. It can be quite helpful later if things need to be walked up the chain.

 

[ants]

There's always more to the story. I'm sure there is more to this one.

I ain't no Kimber fan. I say that up front. I harbor no allegiance.


But you cannot categorically blame the manufacturer, if previous owner screwed with the trigger mechanism.


And if previous owner screwed with the trigger mechanism, the manufacturer would have to be VERY careful about what they say. Like any manufacturer they carry liability for their advice, and it was clear you had a second-hand rifle. They needed to be VERY careful about what they say. The discredit to Kimber is their lack of communication and promptness, I'm with gunslinger in being unimpressed with Kimber on that count. Every business owner (me included) must be responsive when an owner has a problem, even if the response is to say "Take it to a gunsmith for repair, it's out of warranty".

And there could also be more to the story that we don't know.

 

[gunslinger15]

Yes I think my biggest problem with this whole ordeal was being told this "could never happen sir". Im holding the riffle in my hands watching it happen over and over...

I would have been much happier had I got any kind of answer as to what they wanted to do about it.... Its been four days since the initial phone call and still haven't received a phone call or email.

Other then this issue I couldn't be more pleased with this riffle. Fit and finish are great. Its a perfectly balanced riffle. It shoulders like a dream. The accuracy thus far has been awesome. A little customer service would go a long way...

I had my doubts buying this riffle after reading some of the lousy reviews. I took a chance and overall Im pretty happy. Once this riffle proves itself dependable Im sure it will be my hunting partner for a long long time.

Will I buy another kimber? Time will tell.

As for someone prior to me adjusting the trigger I cant say. Im just glad I was able to track down the issue and it was a simple fix. No thanks to kimber.

An extra fact I left out. This riffle was made in 2002. It has a 2 position safety... there was never a recall on this safety that I have found. But it makes you wonder if they knew about this possible issue and is why they switched to the 3 position?

- Gunslinger

 

[jmr40]

Yes I think my biggest problem with this whole ordeal was being told this "could never happen sir". Im holding the riffle in my hands watching it happen over and over...

I've got a Remington that will do the same at times even though I bought it new and the trigger has never been touched. Remington, and a few other doubters keep telling me it can't happen either, yet I've seen it. I understand the frustration.

In your case it appears to be a problem caused by the previous owner. I have a Kimber, never had that type of problem. Hope you've got the problem solved and can again trust the gun.

 

[Dr.Rob]

It's very possible someone tried a trigger job on the gun, mucked it up and that's why it was for sale.

Even so, you would think that in our litigeous age Kimber would have said "Ship that to us ASAP". (You probably wouldn't have your rifle back in time for deer season.)

Did the seller on Gunbroker advertise that as NEW or like new? If the seller is an authorized Kimber dealer, rather than a secondary seller this could create a paper trail Kimber can't shrug off.

You should contact the seller, at least for a heads up.

I'd also write Kimber a sternly worded letter, not an e-mail, about their 'customer service'.

 

[Slamfire]

I've got a Remington that will do the same at times even though I bought it new and the trigger has never been touched. Remington, and a few other doubters keep telling me it can't happen either, yet I've seen it. I understand the frustration.

Remington must have a corporate policy to deny any problems with their M700 trigger mechanisms. They have known since the rifle was first produced, back in 1947?, that the trigger mechanisms can follow. I suspect to reduce their legal liability they totally deny that it is either a design or workmanship issue.

Remington is not the only organization to claim that the problems with their rifles are only due to bad reloads and worn out rifles. The Army with the active participation of the NRA did this with the Garand. The Garand has a long free floating firing pin. When that free floating firing pin hits an overly sensitive primer the rifle will slamfire. Sometimes they slamfire in battery, sometimes they slamfire out of battery. These may be one in a million events, but they do happen. This problem was known all the way back to the trap door Garand days, because the Army redesigned the firing pin to lighten it.

When Garands finally got into the hands of civilians at the National Matches, and civilians used the thin skinned primers commercial primers available to them , slamfires happened. You can read the disinformation campaign in early 60’s American Riflemen articles where the NRA/Army tells the shooting community that slamfires are only due to “high primers and worn out rifles”. Neither would admit that the design was inherently susceptible to slamfires, they just passed the blame on the civilians.

Incidentally, neither will Federal admit that their primers are too sensitive to use in M1's and M1 carbines. They told a M1 carbine user who had an out of battery slamfire with Federal factory that the fault was due to the design of the gun. The fact that 30 Carbine Federal factory ammunition has primers too sensitive for the M1 carbine mechanism was not suggested in their fault analysis. http://www.thegunzone.com/ij-m1carbine_kb.html#nb2

 

[Lazerbeans]

I always thought the M700 came out in 1962 and Remington began designing it in 1947ish?

 

[rd_zzyzx]

I found a video of an M1 and how the trigger and sear work. I know it is not like the Kimber rifle. But it helped me understand certain aspects of how a trigger system can work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dizArLleY3I

 

[Vern Humphrey]

As others have said, I am inclined to believe someone screwed with this trigger.

Having said that, if I was Kimber Customer Service, and someone told me a Kimber had fired when the safety was released, my first reaction would be, "Holy Crap!! Get that thing back to us, and we'll fix it, no charge."

For one thing, I can't tell over the phone what's wrong with the gun -- it could be a flaw or defect in manufacture. For another, i don't care who caused the problem, I don't want a gun my company made involved in this kind of accidental discharge, ever.

 

[MachIVshooter]

99% positive that it was screwed with by the previous owner.

And there could also be more to the story that we don't know.

That's my thought....

Gunslinger15-

How were you with the CSR? Polite and respectful, or did you start off immediately lambasting them? I ask, because I've had dealings with firearm manufacturers that are oft accused of crappy CS, but I put forth a most positive and friendly attitude, and always got good results.

In the reverse, I'm a mechanic, and the couple of times I was frustrated and flew off the handle at someone for a wrong part or somesuch, believe me, the response was proportionately crappy.

Also, as a business owner, I can tell you that when someone calls me with a complaint but is courteous and respectful, I am very apologetic and go out of my way to help them. But when they call me screaming right off the bat, I'm less than helpful and may let their next couple calls go to voicemail before I do anything at all, depending on just how vile they were.

In my 30 years on this planet, I can only think of a handful of times when friendly and polite didn't work, and it was usually with larger companies. Once you climb a couple rungs and talk to someone with a bit of authority, it is usually handled. In the rare case that it is not, then go ballistic. You now have that right.

That's one reason you should never rely on a mechanical safety. I never walk around with one in the chamber and the rifle on safe. I don't give a darned what they all do on TV or in the magazines

Good luck when that big buck is in your sights and you remember that you have to work the bolt; He'll hear that, and you'll be empty handed.

 

[Slamfire]

I always thought the M700 came out in 1962 and Remington began designing it in 1947ish?

After WWII Remington designed the Model 721. Mike Walker, who is in his 90's and still mentally sharp, lead a design team to replace the M720. Manufacturing started 1947. The basic action is called today the Model 700. The major differences are what I would call styling.

A gray beard I know told me of two hardware store new M721's that discharged through the floor boards when the safeties were taken off. The owners were standing beside their vehicles and were unloading their rifles.

With the exception of the trigger mechanism, which has always had issues, the basic 721/722/725/700 is a very sound design.

 

[gunslinger15]

My attitude with the customer service rep was very courteous and friendly. I simply explained to him the situation with the history of the gun, the issue I was having with the firearm, and what a safety concern it was to me. I made it a point to say what a high level of quality products they produce and how happy I was with the firearm overall. When he told me it wasn't going to be covered by warranty however I respectfully told him that if it was my company and I had a product that posed such a safety hazard I would want to do everything in my power to make it right....

The second time I called I was just as friendly and respectful. I told them who I was, the problem I was having, and that the last customer service rep I spoke with said I would be contacted shortly. I gave her my information again and that was that..

I don't understand why I never got a response one way or the other. It just shows me a great lack of concern on their part.

I have always held most Kimber products with a high regard for integrity and quality. This dealing has left a sour taste in my mouth and now I'm reconsidering the Ultra Carry I was planning on purchasing in the near future.

-Gunslinger

 

[joed]

Then don't do business with Kimber, I wouldn't if I were treated as stated. It's important that they be shown they aren't needed in the firearms world with their attitude.

I wouldn't own S&W for 25 years because I bought what I considered to be junk for a brand new pistol.

 

[Horsemany]

I had a good dose of New York attitude while dealing with Kimber. Never again. They'd be well served to get someone there answering phone calls who cares about customers.

 

[HKGuns]

I'd write a letter to the company explaining the situation and address it to the CEO of the company. I'm sure if the upper management knew this was going on they'd be pretty quick to fix it.

 

[BrocLuno]

Sucks that it happened, but if it was used, you have no idea who or what has been "tweaking" that rifle. Glad it's fixed and workable. Glad you took the time to check it and test it.

I've had guys show up a deer camp with new rifles with zero time on them - I always hunt the other direction.

I like my Mauser and Arisaka safeties. They block the FP period. It ain't going anywhere. But I do see how if they are moving and releasing against a sensitive sear, it could get real ugly