New Milspec

[Jammer Six]

Okay, Tuner, Wichaka, Old Fuff, Bear, I have my new milspec.

First, inside about 300 rounds, had ejection problems. On examination, I concluded two things: the Springer extractor wasn't under enough tension, and the hook on it wasn't fitted correctly.

The first thing I did was tension the extractor, and the jams slowed down, but they didn't stop.

So I measured the hook, and found it was about .010 longer than the one you installed in my first milspec, so I held it up to the light, and sure enough, the hook was bottoming out on the groove. I smoked up several pieces of brass from different manufacturers, and proved that the hook was hitting the bottom of the groove as well as the forward angle on all of them.

So I filed and stoned the hook down, until there was a sliver of light, maybe a couple thousandths, between the hook and the brass, regardless of which position the brass was in, sitting forward on the extractor or tight to the breechface. It's still about five thousandths longer than the one you installed, but there's light, there's clearance on all brands of brass.

The failures to extract went away. Completely.

Now, I have two more issues.

One, on the first full test magazine after fitting the extractor, one of the Official Tuner Versions, a Metalform seven round, dimpled follower, upgraded spring, on the last round, the slide locked back, and the last round was sitting there, on top of the mag.

It wasn't under the magazine lips, it was just sitting there, loose, not in the chamber, not in the magaine, just rolling around in a locked-back slide.

Only happened that one time, hasn't happened since, (maybe three or four hundred rounds since then.) and the slide hasn't locked back prematurely or failed to lock back since that first time.

Second, I now have a new type of jam, and it is the only type of jam that happens with this weapon.

The weapon cycles correctly, it extracts, it feeds, but it doesn't return completely to battery. When I examine each jam, they are always the same, the round is under the hook of the extractor, in the correct position, the round has started to chamber, but the slide simply hasn't finished the stroke. It takes a strong push to finish the chamber, and put the weapon in battery. It takes quite a bit of effort to push the slide home.

It is not restricted to the first round out of the magazine, the last round or the second to last round. It happens on all the rounds, and it doesn't happen often, maybe once in three magazines. It has happened once or twice dropping the slide from slide lock on a new magazine.

So there you go.

Other than that, I'm very pleased, and Wichaka and I are theatening to come down there, drink your coffee, pet your dogs, shoot your weapons, and SLAP your silly ass!

Yeah, whattaya think about that, huh?

You can put all that behind you simply by flying up here, you know...

 

[1911Tuner]

re: Jamz

Jammer's Jammin' Springer eh?

First, take another .003 inch off the tip of the hook. Brass rims vary enough in diameter that a "Sliver of Light" just ain't enough to insure it doesn't bottom out in the extractor groove. As long as it's not hitting the forward angle of the groove, it's probably good to go.

Did you put a radius on the bottom of the hook? If not, do so.

Next...The round loose in the well jumped the follower under recoil. If you'll notice, the pimpled dimple was re-punched some time ago due to the fact that I wore the original one almost flat. (It could use a new follower... 25 of which are on the way from Metalform as we speak.) Could be part of it...Could be too much recoil spring. You didn't say whether it was a new gun or if you'd changed the spring, or...

You also may have a wee bit too much tension on the extractor. Remove the recoil system...reassemble with the bushing in place... and see if it'll feed and go to battery on the >last round< in the mag by pushing it home briskly with the tip of one finger.

Next:

Check the breechface for roughness. Remove the extractor and measure the breechface guide rails. Should be .484 to .488 inch. Adjust if necessary with a flat, safe-sided needle file. Break the corner lightly at the top of the barrel ramp and polish with 600-grit paper on your finger. Hit the Dremel a few times with a large hammer to keep it from seducing you.

Check to see if the barrel rides the link as it goes around the forward radius of the lower lug.

Standin' by...

 

[Old Fuff]

Ya also didn't tell us what ammunition your were using. W-Mart junk-pack, reloads, rusty USGI steel-cased ball, what ...

Seriously, take some of this stuff and drop it into the chamber after you remove the barrel from the slide. Be sure a tight chamber isn't causing problems sometimes.

I think they use an old oversized screwdriver for a finishing reamer ...

 

[1911Tuner]

Chamber

Fuff said:

I think they use an old oversized screwdriver for a finishing reamer ...
************************

I think you're assuming that they even know what a finishing reamer is, Fuff...and goin' on what I've seen in the last 5 years, I'm doubtful.

 

[Jammer Six]

Okay, answers.

First, Old Fuff, it was three kinds of ammo: PMC, (my favorite) Winchester, and CCI Blazer. I don't reload, but it also happened with reloads a buddy of mine did. So it's four kinds of ammo.

Second: I removed the recoil spring and guide rod, and cycled dummy rounds from a full magazine by hand.

As it happened, I came back from the range last night, and wiped the weapon down and oiled it, but I hadn't cleaned the chamber or the barrel yet. So the barrel had about 50 rounds through it since it had been cleaned.

I ran the test first with the fouled barrel, then cleaned it, oiled it, and ran it again. It did appear to run easier after being cleaned and oiled, but that's subjective.

I can do it with what I think is some force, but I don't really know enough to tell how stiff or how easy it cycles. It's harder than you push on a button on the TV remote, it's harder than you push on a round to load it into a magazine, but it's not as hard as you push to insert the pin that holds the mainspring housing in place.

How's that?

That all said, I noticed someting new: when I cycle the action without the recoil system, with dummy rounds, if I cycle it quickly, it works fine. If, however, I cycle it slowly, the round that's being extracted doesn't eject- the base of the round rides up over the ejector, and drags all the way back, staying under the extractor.

You have to drop the magazine, and push it back down to get it to eject.

Doesn't happen when you do it fast, but it happens almost every time when you do it slow.

Tuner, where the hell are the "breechface guide rails"? And which dremel bit should I use?

It cycles all the rounds in a magazine just fine if you do it "briskly". It's a slow cycle that causes trouble.

There is a hesitation at the following points in the cycle, if you do it slowly: when the slide first touches the hammer, when the round comes in contact with the ejector, when the breechface touches the disconector, when the breechface touches the round in the magazine, when the nose of the round touches the feed ramp, when the nose of the round touches the top of the chamber, and when I pick it up out of the mud after throwing it through the window.

On the breechface, how rough is rough?

I also noticed that the firing pin stop may not be holding the extractor tightly. It may be clocking.

How do you check for clocking?

What I see is this: when I remove the extractor, if I reinstall the extractor and the firing pin stop, without the firing pin, the firing pin stop is loose, and will fall out until a round or a piece of brass is inserted under the extractor, at which point the firing pins stop becomes locked in place.

How snug should it be?

The slot in the extractor fits pretty snugly around the firing pin stop, but I can't tell if it's clocking or not. How can you tell for certain?

And thanks, guys. I appreciate the help.

 

[Old Fuff]

The firing pin stop should be a snug, but sliding fit. (As opposed to a press fit). If the extractor is clocking you can see it at the back of the slide, because the flat on the extractor won't stay lined up with the slide, next to the hammer slot. Clear as mud??

When you slip a round under the extractor at the front it apparently pivots the extractor enough at the back to press on the slide stop. Not exactly a precise fit, but a little bit will do it.

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

"How smooth is smooth?"

No obvious tool marks, burrs, dings, or scratches that you can snag with a fingernail. No need for a mirror polish.
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"Where the hell are the...guide rails?"

Remove the slide and slide the barrel out. Flip the slip upside down. Look either side of the breechface for two square blocks...One will intersect the extractor channel. Remove the extractor and use a caliper to measure the distance between'em. (.484-.488-plus .002 minus 0 ) If you have to open it up, use a safe-side flat or square file, and take your time. Reinstall the extractor. If the bottom of the beveled area protrudes beyond the edge of its rail, cut the bevel a little deeper to make it flush. Don't extend the bevel any higher into the floor of the hook...just deepen the bevel a little. Break the sharp corner at the upper end of the bevel lightly.

Try that and see if it gets better. You may need to modify the extractor hook a little more, but we'll wait to see if things improve first before gettin' into it.

 

[1911Tuner]

Well...

As fate would have it, I went down to the range early today for my therapy,
and had the same thing happen with one of my beater mags. Same deal...
Re-dimpled dimple, Wolff spring and all. Tested the mag again and again, and finally got a rerun on the 6th try. Turned out to be the spring. Replaced it with a new one and it didn't happen again. Well...They've been in hard use for about 5 years now. Can't expect'em to last forever, I guess.

 

[ulflyer]

Tuner: Mighta Been....

One of them old mags I slipped in you pile.

Or could it have been some of those Trail Boss bullets?

 

[saltydog452]

Extraction difficulties..Jammer's and mine.

Hello Jammer,

I had some extrraction/ejection problems with a relatively little used, but new to me Norinco. I 'overdid' some of the suggested extractor tweeks and wound up buying new extractors from Cylinder and Slide. To get 'correct' tension on the extractor hook, the extractor was an almost drop free insertion into the tunnel. Tuner suggested that there should be some side pressure exerted on the extractor by the extractor tunnel in the slide and that it definitely should not simply 'drop-in' the tunnel. I did that and ejection is still positive but still more of an 'out and down' ejection of the fired brass rather than an 'out and up'. I put some cold blue on the extractor so I could see the brass tracks. The tip of the extractor was not bearing on the brass case extractor groove in my reloaded dummy rounds, but was bearing inside the groove on factory ammunition.

I Did the cold blue on the extractor again after a little minor stone work on the extractor. Brass tracks on the extractor are now on the inside of the vertical flat 'wall' on the extractor.

The recoil spring had 35 coils. I 'spect it was a variable rate recoil spring. I dunno, as I said it was a new to me, but little used 'Rinco. I made up a full bottle cap of 'Carolina Tar Heel Slurry' and spent several minutes running the slide to and froe (froe..the adjective, not the tool), replaced the recoil spring with a new std. ball spring and using ammunition of known performance (230 grain Hydra-Shock), all is now well.

Extraction is positive, and ejection is now ' out and up' w/o brass striking me on the head/face. According to published recommendations, there is still too much pressure by the extractor on the brass, but it does do what its supposed to do. I guess thats all that matters.

The use of cold blue on the extractor, ejector, and inside of the slide can help you trace the path of the brass with the brass tracks as it moves from the magazine to the ground. It may also provide a little insight as to what's happening. A change of recoil spring, using Cylinder and Slide extractor (gently and slowly modified..I'm a slow learner, but not that slow),a change of ammunition, and judicious use of Tuner's slurry mix corrected the Norinco's pre-disposition to send the fired brass cases either into my face/head area or vigorously angled 'out and down'.

Hope this helps Jammer.

salty.


Plz edit to mention that when I cycle loaded ammunitioon through the 1911, I install a firing pin that has been shortened to where it is impossible for the firing pin to contact the primer on a chambered/loaded round.

sd.