New OC tool idea - opinions appreciated

[hso]

Gotta get outside of this community or you'll never make any money.

 

[OC-Trainer]

Took me reading your reply to realize the OC in your handle is about defensive spray, not open carry. Nevertheless, you're right about the current target of OC sprays being targeted toward women. Law enforcement and corrections would be the other major target demographic.

Is that something you're looking to change? Most men, myself included, fall into the delusion that OC isn't manly, which is why we tend to carry guns, knives, impact weapons, and learn martial arts for defense. But I'm willing to change my perspective on it. I've looked at different sprays, but never gone further than just casual browsing. Unfortunately, my state requires a certain recipe for OC and restricts anything more powerful for law enforcement use only. Kind of a bummer, there. But, if even the low powered stuff we have in Michigan was incorporated into another object, mundane or more 'tactical' oriented, that actually would increase my own personal interest. A reloadable OC dispenser integrated into a high lumen flashlight or something else I carry daily... Well you may be on to something. I don't know what your idea is, but I'm looking forward to learning more.

I hear you about the Michigan laws, and it also sounds like you've picked up on some of the short comings of certain OC products. Whether it by through their marketing or the products themselves.

Think of me as a "white hat" hacker of the defense spray industry. Spending decades in this field I know what the weaknesses are. Take, for example, Sabre. Easily the biggest name in OC spray today, yet there is virtually zero innovation. The dump tons of money into stun guns (the fools gold of sd devices) and home security window sensors. When they do make something new it is a worthless iteration of pepper spray attached to an iPhone case or some other such nonsense, then it is discontinued. Even the videos they put out show someone shooting a static dummy from 8 feet out. It doesn't happen that way in the real world. What I always wondered is why they never put out a video of someone actively trying to dodge the spray while rushing toward the "victim." The outcome would be very different. Another example is that just about every pepper spray can be neutralize if you force canister into a bad angle. Grabbed from behind? Pepper spray is useless (with very few exceptions).

We went back to the drawing board to address these issues. Less complicated products that do not rely on fine motor skills, and easier to use tools that are more centered around gross motor skills. In some ways we went back to the stone age.

If a flashlight with OC spray is what you are looking for then have a look here-http://tigerlight.net/product/series-ii/ The refills are by Sabre and/or Guardian.

OCT

 

[JShirley]

If memory serves, the crenelated bezels where marketed as "window breakers."

I know some of them describe themselves as impact devices.

http://www.batteryjunction.com/nitecore-tactical-bezel.html
http://www.hdssystems.com/Products/BezelS/
https://olightworld.com/tag/strike-bezel/

Or, even what the top-of-the-line Elzetta says about its crennelated bezel:
http://www.elzetta.com/make-your-own-elzetta-led-charlie-series-flashlight.html

 

[txblackout]

women can carry sprays because they have a purse, but it is slow to access. I have no place to put an OC can so I dont carry one.

for me to carry it, it would have to be really small. knowing your demographic, where they go, what they carry, what constraints they have etc are critical.

like many guys I carry a phone, keys (with flashlight, bottle opener), wallet and sometimes a small knife. My pockets are maxed out. I would totally carry OC, but it would need to be small, say half the size of a standard pen and maybe be a pen. It would likely need to replace my bottle opener, because I wouldnt add anything else to my keychain.

If you could build it into my phone case or wallet that might be an option too.

I have tried to carry when I mountain bike because of dogs, but I keep losing the cans.

 

[OC-Trainer]

I know some of them describe themselves as impact devices.

http://www.batteryjunction.com/nitecore-tactical-bezel.html
http://www.hdssystems.com/Products/BezelS/
https://olightworld.com/tag/strike-bezel/

Or, even what the top-of-the-line Elzetta says about its crennelated bezel:
http://www.elzetta.com/make-your-own-elzetta-led-charlie-series-flashlight.html

Great links. Thanks...

 

[OC-Trainer]

women can carry sprays because they have a purse, but it is slow to access. I have no place to put an OC can so I dont carry one.

for me to carry it, it would have to be really small. knowing your demographic, where they go, what they carry, what constraints they have etc are critical.

like many guys I carry a phone, keys (with flashlight, bottle opener), wallet and sometimes a small knife. My pockets are maxed out. I would totally carry OC, but it would need to be small, say half the size of a standard pen and maybe be a pen. It would likely need to replace my bottle opener, because I wouldnt add anything else to my keychain.

If you could build it into my phone case or wallet that might be an option too.

I have tried to carry when I mountain bike because of dogs, but I keep losing the cans.

Thanks for chiming in, tx.

The OC spray in phone case has been done many times with little to no success:

http://www.amazon.com/SABRE-SmartGuard-Pepper-Spray-iPhone/dp/B007YXWADG

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZ0A-1Oo13s

In urban areas, there's something known on the street as "apple picking," which is essentially stealing a persons iPhone while they're not paying attention. Basically the antithesis of situational awareness. Happens all the time on the subway systems.

If you need one for your bike, try this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue5-3h943q0


Our product is going to have a small, quick-release holster to help get it into play a quickly as possible. We wanted to make something that had the ability to create the temporary eye closing ability of pepper spray, but without the aerosol aspect. Aerosols immediately eliminate the possibility of plane and courthouse carry. The defense tool "grail," is the ability to carry it anywhere-even in the most restrictive environs. That is what we are going for here, in addition to the other things I mentioned previously.

Thanks again for your input, appreciate it.

OCT

 

[OC-Trainer]

Just wanted to take a minute and thank everyone who participated in this thread. We really appreciate it!

To summarize - We've taken an old concept and modernized it. This tool will be completely adaptable for many different SD applications. And not in a gimmicky way, either. It is designed to excell in every facet. To perform as good as, or better than, the stand alone (and less versatile) single purpose tools for close-quarters combat. One device; many possibilities:

• Small impact tool (kubotan, yawara)
• Fistload
• OC/metsubushi delivery

100% US-made, too. Now we just have to decide how to market it, and the advice and comments in this thread have helped tremendously - so thanks again, gang.

OCT

 

[JShirley]

"Under-promise. Over-deliver."

The customer care motto.

John

 

[MillCreek]

So is this going to be the ASP Key Defender 2.0, so to speak?

 

[Bobson]

When you do start advertising, are we gonna know it when we see it? Or will you come back and point it out to us?

 

[OC-Trainer]

So is this going to be the ASP Key Defender 2.0, so to speak?

Thanks for your question. While I do think that ASP got a lot right with that series (cone spray), this will be different in a number or ways.

The Defender, and virtually all defense sprays, presume that you will see the threat(s) coming. In a perfect world, that would be the case. However, ambush style attacks are the method of choice more often than not. Most of the above products will not perform all that great (if at all) in that scenario. The ASP must be held just so to deploy. It requires fine motor skills to orientate the safety before firing. I've hosted a lot of OC classes. We've done realistic drills with every type/style of product out there. Virtually no one could get the ASP situated in time while being rushed and/or grabbed from behind. Also, only the larger sizes can realistically be used as an impact tool. The "Palm" is too small. In addition, I think that carrying keys on the them actually is a hinderance, rather than help. The keys can obstruct access to the actuator when used in a hurry. To be fair, no pepper spray currently on the market handles an ambush well. That was one of our main objectives. Create a tool that can handle the most likely scenarios on the street.

Some other differences: We've eliminated the aerosol (for a number of reasons, see other posts above), made it totally adaptable to the user, and perhaps most importantly - made it easy to use under combat stress-maximizing the use of gross-motor skills to increase effectiveness in a physical altercation.

Again, I don't want to over-hype this tool. It is not a magic wand that will thwart all evil with a single wave of the arm, but we did take a time-proven concept, and bring it into the 21st century.


OCT

 

[OC-Trainer]

When you do start advertising, are we gonna know it when we see it? Or will you come back and point it out to us?

Thanks for the question and interest, Bobson.

I'll definitely make sure those interested can get a look at it, but it won't be here in this thread, since we are trying to keep it off certain lists.
https://fas.org/irp/agency/doj/fbi/weapons.pdf

That ^ is one list we don't want to be on. (Notice the mugshots of the ASP Defender and "Travel Wrench")

I'll come up with something in the near future.

OCT

 

[glistam]

Enough hints have been dropped that I have a reasonably good idea what this is going to be like, especially after reading up on old Japanese weapons. But yeah NDAs and all, I know you can't answer much else without the jig being up. I'm liking the idea so far though, and look forward to seeing it.

If this item is truly able to fly so low under the radar that it can be brought into restricted areas (due not being a "weapon" per se), one other market might be the United Kingdom, where the law is very vague and covers anything that is designed or adapted specifically as a weapon.

 

[OC-Trainer]

Thanks, glistam. Appreciate your thoughts.

I'm glad I was able to shed a little more light on it. Even if it was in a round about way. I'm a pretty straight shooter, so the tap dancing that I must do whenever an NDA is involved kills me

There is a great line in the movie Skyfall - 'Sometimes the old ways are the best.'
That is exactly how I feel about a lot of tools/weapons...a good piece of hickory, a fistful of sand in the eyes, a roll of quarters; right in the kisser (Try that with Apple Pay ). That is exactly how we approached this project.

Good tip about the UK. We've been working with a few blokes from across the pond. The UK laws are the perfect template to help fine tune the 'utility first' aspect of it.

OCT

Edit: Here's the clip for those interested. Around the 3:00 mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dky_B4xqyuA

 

[philuk44]

Hi OC-Trainer

I'm from the UK - been following this thread and I'm a little confused..........
You said you've been working with some people from this side of the pond. If your device contains OC or any similar substance then it's a complete non starter over here whatever other uses it may have. Or is there something I'm missing?

Not trying to be negative in any way - just intrigued...........................

 

[OC-Trainer]

Hi OC-Trainer

I'm from the UK - been following this thread and I'm a little confused..........
You said you've been working with some people from this side of the pond. If your device contains OC or any similar substance then it's a complete non starter over here whatever other uses it may have. Or is there something I'm missing?

Not trying to be negative in any way - just intrigued...........................

No worries, phil. I apologize for the confusion. For reason like NDAs and competitive advantages, I can't be as specific as I would like. Sorry for that. I'll try to clear things up the best I can. My business partner breaks into a sweat whenever I write something in here, mind you. So I have to tread lightly.

The 'tool' will have the capability of releasing OC, but it doesn't necessarily have to contain it. It is completely adaptable. We are well versed on the 'Firearms Act of 1968,' so we've got your back. I've been involve in bringing other products to market and it always bothered me that they weren't available to you there. I've received many requests in the past from the UK, but couldn't help. We are hoping to change that. Additionally, we've spec it to fit the 1p perfectly, if you know what I mean.

Hope this helps and thank you for your interest. Please reach out anytime with any other questions.

OCT

 

[philuk44]

OC-Trainer

Thanks for taking the time to reply

It's great that you're taking an interest in the UK market - as you're obviously aware our options over here are severely limited.

I'll continue to watch this thread closely and wish you well with the launch of your product.

Phil

 

[OC-Trainer]

Many thanks, phil! And I feel your pain. Although I have a license to conceal carry, I spend a lot of time in very restrictive environments. Most of what I carry daily would be very similar to what someone in the UK might carry for personal protection e.g. Umbrella/cane, torch, (jif lemon )

I probably shouldn't get ahead of myself, but we will also have 3-4 other products that will be released at some point (just heard my business partner's head explode). All with genuine utilitarian uses, but with personal protection in mind.

Thanks again!

OCT