New restrictions on gun sales?

[joem1945]

I go to a few local estate auctions around here. Up until now the auctioneer would present firearms for bid and act as agent for the seller.

Now this notice is posted if the estate has any firearms:

1/19/15 DUE TO PRESIDENT OBAMA'S EXECUTIVE ORDER ON GUN CONTROL WE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO OFFER THE FIREARMS FROM THIS ESTATE. AMMO AND ACCESSORIES WILL BE SOLD.

I guess fiat by president has the same force as a law passed by congress. This sucks.

 

[Old Fuff]

I guess fiat by president has the same force as a law passed by congress. This sucks.

It would indeed if the auction house's interpretation is correct, but the law (which the president can't change) clearly states that individuals can dispose of parts of, or an entire collection without having to be an FFL. The auction house is simply acting as an agent for the estate.

I suggest that you contact the BATF&E and ask for a ruling.

If the president's order does actually block non-FFL estate sales it won't be long before the matter is challenged in court.

 

[joem1945]

It will be up to the auction house to contact the BATF for a ruling on this. In the past I've gotten a lot of nice firearms from this auction house. Well maybe next year we will have a president that will be more gun friendly, I Hope!!!

 

[v35]

1/19/15 DUE TO PRESIDENT OBAMA'S EXECUTIVE ORDER

Bzzzt. Stop right there. There has been no executive order.

I guess fiat by president has the same force as a law passed by congress.

Executive orders carry the weight of law. Executive actions do not. The auctioneer is misinformed, as is the vast majority of the public.

The only tangible manifestation of this executive action has been to increase sales of firearms and ammunition beyond any dealer's wildest dreams.

 

[Sam1911]

Yeah...so that's an example of the FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) that's floating around this issue right now.

There WAS NO Executive Order, period. And until the BATFE produces some interpretation that an auction house is, themselves, engaged in the business of selling firearms by handling estates as they always have done, then this is just hyper-sensitivity on their part.

If they were acting legally last year, they're acting legally THIS year.

 

[Sam1911]

Executive orders carry the weight of law. Executive actions do not.

I'm not even sure that's the right way to say it. Executive orders are clear and binding directions from the President to his officers to proceed in a specific way or enact a certain policy under their regulatory discretion. They do not create or modify or nullify or alter LAWs.

Executive actions are simply those actions taken by the President, that he and his executive branch members will be doing some things and funding some things and hiring some more agents and focusing efforts in certain directions.

 

[mgkdrgn]

I go to a few local estate auctions around here. Up until now the auctioneer would present firearms for bid and act as agent for the seller.

Now this notice is posted if the estate has any firearms:

1/19/15 DUE TO PRESIDENT OBAMA'S EXECUTIVE ORDER ON GUN CONTROL WE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO OFFER THE FIREARMS FROM THIS ESTATE. AMMO AND ACCESSORIES WILL BE SOLD.

I guess fiat by president has the same force as a law passed by congress. This sucks.

Just proves that some auction houses are run by idiots.

 

[v35]

Just so I understand it, Executive Actions are sort of like erecting a multitude of New Offices and sending hither swarms of Officers to harass people and eat out their substance... is that right?

 

[Sam1911]

Funny guy...

 

[Leanwolf]

JOEM 1945, in what State do you live??

L.W.

 

[Twiki357]

I guess that it would depend on the state laws and the auction house. I’ve been to a few estate auctions for firearms and in every case (Different auctioneers) they had an FFL on site to do background checks… For $50 a pop. I could be wrong, but I consider an estate auction to be a private sale between the estate or individual and the buyer that does not require a background check. The auctioneer is only a facilitator, just like a gun show provider.

 

[ROW]

So does that mean I could separate the upper and lower and sell it to the same guy. and skirt the rules.

 

[jerkface11]

Skirt what rules? No matter what the lower is a gun.

 

[CapnMac]

There is the possibility that, after the EA speech, the auction house called atf and said, "hey, we sold nn guns last years, do we now need a license?" And atf probably said yes. At which point auction house geeked thinking that it would be thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours background investigation.

But, I have to admit to being jaded, what with the number of "please no open carry" signs that are not even approximations of 30.07 signage--so vast ignorance seems to be the order of the day.

 

[old lady new shooter]

I guess that it would depend on the state laws and the auction house. I’ve been to a few estate auctions for firearms and in every case (Different auctioneers) they had an FFL on site to do background checks… For $50 a pop. I could be wrong, but I consider an estate auction to be a private sale between the estate or individual and the buyer that does not require a background check. The auctioneer is only a facilitator, just like a gun show provider.

At least out here auctioneers typically take a fee from both the buyer and seller and the fee is stated as a percentage of the winning bid. Do gun shows do that, or do they just charge $x for a booth?

 

[alsaqr]

Federal law does not require the auctioneer at an estate auction to posess an FFL. ATF ruling 96-2 covers estate auctions and consignment auctions:

In the case of estate-type auctions, the auctioneer acts as an agent of the executor and assists the executor in finding buyers for the estate’s firearms. The firearms are possessed by the estate, and the sales of firearms are made by the estate. In these cases, the auctioneer does not meet the definition of “engaging in the business” as a dealer in firearms and would not require a license. An auctioneer engaged in estate-type auctions, whether licensed or not, may perform this function, including delivery of the firearms, away from the business premises.

http://amgoa.org/ATF-Rulings

The holder of consignment auctions must possess an FFL.

 

[Tirod]

Executive Orders are directives for those subordinate to his authority in the Executive Branch. He cannot invoke Orders that make Congress or the Courts subject to his interpretation of how laws are to be prosecuted.

He cannot order YOU or ME to do anything. He can order his subordinates to put legal pressure on us only in the areas where there is law and it's applicable.

He is not by any measure an omnipotent or all powerful being capable of transcending physics or the Constitution. Getting that point across to some in an age of information saturation is, however, highly frustrating. For some reason people become adults in America with some kind of concept the President has royal anointment and controls everything they do in their life.

The Auction house is using the situation to get out of firearms sales for their own reasons and making it look as if the President is to blame. Instead of calling the ATF, a politely worded letter with the applicable reference mentioned above might inform them of the situation. I won't hurt to mention they will lose money because of their attitude about it.

 

[Elkins45]

My most repeated phrase this week is "people just love drama." This is just another example.

I am a member of another shooting-related forum. On that forum someone posted a link to a Whitehouse.gov petition against "President Obama's new Executive Orders" and urged us to go sign it. When the number of signatures didn't grow fast enough another member chided us for not caring enough about the 2nd Amendment. When I pointed out there have been no new executive orders it was met with the chirping of crickets. I was spoiling a good panic.

Seems like your auctioneer has been talking to the drama people too.

 

[Salmoneye]

Post #16 has the correct answer...

 

[alsaqr]

When the number of signatures didn't grow fast enough another member chided us for not caring enough about the 2nd Amendment. When I pointed out there have been no new executive orders it was met with the chirping of crickets. I was spoiling a good panic.

Good for you.

i've ruined numerous perfectly good rants on several gun boards. i've been accused of being a "liberal", an "anti-gunner", not being a "patriot", "hating America", etc.

Many folks on these boards get all their info from unreliable sources while excoriating something they call the "mainstream media". Some folks parrot that unreliable trash because it's what they want to hear. Others simply don't take the time to vet that information before passing it on.

 

[Sam1911]

Indeed. We see the buds of that springing up here often. But we have a very strong drive among the Staff (and many of our great members!) to knock that stuff down as fast as it springs up. Kind of like rhetorical "Whack-A-Mole."

Folks still get a little huffy, but when they're repeatedly requested to "Prove it," and "Show me in the law where it says that," and then handed what the law, or the Executive Order (ahem...if any), or the BATFE ruling really says, they tend to back off.


At our most generous, we do see this as what's known as "Defensive Pessimism." That is a process by which an individual (or group?) prepares itself for tough times and bad news by concentrating on those bad events and acting as though they're either a foregone conclusion or already here.

"Things are as bad as they could possibly be, and they're only getting worse!!!"

Unfortunately that's still a form of lying to yourself, just as much as pretending there are no threats and the world is a happy place would be.

THR is for realists and we deal in the realm of the true and the factual and the present.

That gets under some folks' skin!

 

[FROGO207]

Yeah sticking to the facts and truth keeps things from going off into the ditch and spreading misinformation. One of the reasons I frequent this place.