New rifle 30-06 misfires and shoulders blown forward - a lot!

[MistWolf]

1) The Ackley Improved was designed to safely shoot the parent cartridge so it could be fireformed into the AI version. A little velocity is lost because pressure is actually reduced. Sorry boys, there's no chance of the rifle blowing up and it's not a lawsuit waiting to happen

2) In practice, "Ackley Improved" covers a lot of territory. This rifle is chambered for one type or another of the 30-06 Ackley Improved even of the specs are off a little

3) If it were me, I'd keep the rifle (assuming it's mechanically sound) and start working up a good load for it. When the 30-06 AI first came out, it offered little to no increase of velocity while burning more powder. That's changed with the advent of modern propellants. I'd like to see what it could do- and if it were chambered that way at the factory for a project, I'd have it documented. Make a good conversation starter down at the gunshop

4) Reason for the misfire is simple- some of the cases were a bit short and the firing pin couldn't reach the primer. Nothing a knowledgeable reloader couldn't fix

 

[IMtheNRA]

I really doubt that chamber is actually AI - I can't think of a reason that whoever manufactures this Winchester brand rifle would even have an AI chamber reamer. I think that's where only custom rifle makers and gunsmiths operate. Certainly not something you'd find at Walmart.

I just said that it looks like AI because the shape of the fired brass resembles AI brass instead of standard 30-06.

The rifle's owner is new to rifles and he did not see anything odd about this brass until I pointed out the strange new shape. I wonder how many other entry-level gun buyers don't even know there may be something odd about their new rifles if Winchester released more of these chambers into the market.

 

[PedalBiker]

The A I chambers are designed to properly head space factory ammo. This gun has obvious head space problems at the very least.

I would not keep this one unless I planned to remove the barrel. It would be interesting to know what happened. I bought a "new" Winchester stainless built in the FN plant. It had a repair slip in the box that was not too detailed. It ended up needing more warranty work. I sent it back they fixed it but again with only a list of parts replaced.

 

[_CY_]

from OP

 

[BBDartCA]

/\ that could be it!

 

[dvdcrr]

Deleted.

 

[joem1945]

Many years ago I bought a new Marlin 30-30. First shot seized in the chamber. returned it to the factory and had it repaired. Bad head space was the issue.

 

[JSH1]

Wow and WOW. Get that rifle returned for what ever reason. If thats factory I would press for a explanation and full compensation. If a factory defect how many more may be out there that others will shoot with no idea?? That looks like a recall.

Yup. It looks like someone used the wrong reamer. That is why Winchester wants it back. They will investigate the issue:

1. Find out what shift (and likely employee) manufactured the rifle.
2. Determine how long they used the wrong reamer
3. Recall those rifles

Then Winchester will (or should) implement a corrective action designed to prevent this from happening in the future.

 

[armoredman]

It's not an Ackley Improved, it's a mistake. Get it back to the factory and get a new one that's right, or a refund and buy a Remington or CZ rifle instead.

 

[MistWolf]

The only way that barrel was chambered with the wrong reamer is if somebody sold Winchester a 30-06 AI (or something similar) reamer by mistake. No factory reamer could cut that chamber.

If you would read P.O. Ackley's book, you'd know that the fired brass shows a chamber that, if not an "authentic" AI chamber, it was definitely inspired by the AI design.

AI chambers are designed to fire the parent cartridge safely but that doesn't mean some factory ammo might be a little different in the shoulder area, or the gunsmith didn't cut the chamber a little deep, or the reamer itself wasn't a little off. This is one of the rare cases where tolerance stacking could be the culprit.

Now, put away the pitch forks and torches- at least until we find out what really happened. Dr. Ackleystein's Monster isn't going to hurt anyone

 

[axxxel]

What reamer could it be?

 

[jmr40]

Winchester would not chamber it in ackley

I agree that Winchester probably didn't attempt to chamber it in 30-06AI. But at least one company does offer 280AI from the factroy, Kimber. There is no reason why a manufacturer should not.

I can't think of any explanation for this from the factory. I hope the OP comes back with an update when he hears from Winchester.

 

[Reloadron]

When the actual gun makers turn their barrels out aren't they reamed using a CNC machine? In other words it isn't like there is a guy sitting on a barrel line using a lathe to rough cut and then finish cut every barrel for every rifle. I would guess a CNC machine grabs a tool and cuts the barrel, yes, it's a reamer but not like the traditional reamers we chuck up in a lathe.
While the evil cases in question strongly resemble an AI case with the steep shoulders since Winchester does not offer a 30-06 AI chambering it's awfully hard to figure out what exactly went wrong. I can't even see how a broken tool or a tool that broke during the reaming process would have that result. If the barrels are CNC made I would guess they must pass some form of QC test or inspection so how did this barrel get out or even end up in a receiver? I just don't know the step by step assembly operations process.

Sure is weird though and a topic of conversation.

Ron

 

[rondog]

Yep, would love to hear the final outcome!

 

[handloader357]

Wow... that looks like an Ackley 40 degree shoulder! To say the chamber is out of spec is an understatement. I would insist on having it re-barreled or outright swapped out.

Makes me love and appreciate my pre-64 that much more. I think I'll go pull it out of the safe and hug it. Please post a follow up! Very curious to see how this pans out.

 

[Catpop]

So what I've learned is either this was a "Friday 1700" gun or Winchester no longer test fires their guns before they leave the factory. Hummmmm......
Regardless this should have been caught by quality control in final prep.
Catpop

 

[Clint M]

For those asking what reamer it could have been look at cartridges list that is 30 caliber, and the case is bigger than a 30-06 then narrow down suspicions from that point.

After fired the case looks to have enlarged in diameter, the shoulder moved forward, the should is very shallow and round like a weatherby. Pictures can be deceiving tho, whatever it is it's not an Ackley as a factory ammo would have fully fireformed with sharp shoulders in the same place a original. It could be that a roughing reamer was used, my suspicions are some how a roughing reamer was used to finish ream..how ? maybe shift change or someone had the green apple trots and left, the next man finished the job. As many fired cases as they see every day, and using higher than standard pressures to test with I can see why this was looked over.

Kimber is more of a boutique type, Remington, Winchester, Ruger any of the major brands recommend only factory commercial produced ammo labeled for used in specific firearm. I can easily understand why they are clear, write it on the barrel still you get all these incidents where the wrong ammunition was used. I bet Kimber also has a easy way out if they chamber in Ackley to void the warranty, and liability if a handload causes damage. I think Cooper also chambers wildcat cartridges. I bet the OP will have a 30-06 when it comes back LOL

Edit= I just scanned over a big picture of rifle cartridges, the fired case looks like a 303 british ( I have never owned one).

 

[Delmar]

Pretty sure its not an AI. If for whatever reason it was, the Remington ammo would also have fired. The neck diameter is also quite a bit larger in diameter in the fired cases. Never have owned one, but could the chamber possibly be a 35 Whelan???

 

[jmr40]

Hard to tell from the photo's if the fired cases are larger than .308. That is a possibility. Looking at diagrams in my loading manuals the shoulder appears the same on 30-06, 338-06 and 35 Whelen. But the 9.3X62 has the shoulder moved forward.

While the OP insists it is a new rifle, he also says it is a Winchester "Lightweight" There is no such rifle currently in production by Winchester. They did make a "Lightweight" back in the 1980's and possibly 90's.

Even if it is a new production rifle there is certainly some confusion about what he has.

To add:

I've heard of 30-06 being loaded, and fired in 7mm RM without blowing up a gun. That might also be a possibility

 

[mudstud]

jmr40, I respect your opinions, but if a 30-06 was fired in a 7mmRM, the shoulder wouldn't be blown out to what appears to be a 40 degree shoulder. I once was at the range, next to an acquaintance, who had a brand new 700 BDL 7mmRM, when he fired a 270Win in the 7mmRM. It was interesting! I would never have believed a 270Win would even fire in a 7mmRM, but it did. The fired brass didn't look anything like the OP's fired brass, it was all bulged out from being fired in a larger chamber.

A friend of mine, once fired a 338WM in an 8mmRM! No harm done, the bullet swaged down to .323 and exited the barrel. The fired brass had a very short neck, as I recall!

I agree with your comment about there being some confusion as to just what rifle the OP has. To my knowledge, there is no "Liteweight" Model 70 that has been manufactured recently. Ltr

 

[wally]

or Winchester no longer test fires their guns before they leave the factory. Hummmmm......

If it didn't mis-fire on the test and they only look at the target and not the extracted brass, its easy to see how it could be missed on a test fire.

 

[JFtheGR8]

If it was done on a cnc machine it could simply be the wrong tool was loaded into the tool pocket, the program called up the wrong tool or the operator re-started the program on the wrong line. Say a drill bit was loaded instead of a reamer. I've seen it happen before but not rifle barrels as that's not what my machine shop produced.

 

[IMtheNRA]

I see that I caused some confusion regarding the name of the rifle. While it is a Winchester Model 70, it is not "Lightweight", as I previously posted. Searching around the internet for Model 70 information got the word "Lightweight" stuck in my mind before I starting this discussion.

It is a brand-spanking new Winchester Model 70, purchased at Walmart, which does not accept firearm returns. It is a brand new rifle. The owner of the rifle is the same person who bought it directly from Walmart.

 

[robmints]

If it didn't mis-fire on the test and they only look at the target and not the extracted brass, its easy to see how it could be missed on a test fire.

You would think they would use something as common and useful as go-nogos as part of the inspection process though.

 

[rcmodel]

I'm at a loss.

Winchester / FNH would have no standard tooling on the production line to finish ream such a chamber. (But especially not with a drill bitt.)

And the extracted fired brass shows no signs the chamber was not finished reamed with a proper chamber finish reamer.

I think somehow, some way, somebody bought it and wildcatter it into some sort of 30-06 Imp.

Then somehow, some way, it was returned to a dealer, who sent it back to a distrubrator warehouse, who sent it to Walmart.

There is just no possible way it came off the FNH manufactures line with that chamber in it!!
Because they don't have any chamber reamers like that fired case.

Rc