New Sig 238 .380: basically a revival of the little Colt 380s? (SHOT Show 09)

[MatthewVanitas]

Huh. I hadn't been following all the pre-SHOT 09 buzz, but apparently there were rumors about the new Sig.

I've noticed that .380s have really been booming in the last year or so, presumably due to CCW, and 9mm pretty much having "hit the wall" so far as being put into as tiny a gun as possible.

I dug the little Colts, so I am pretty curious to see how this works out.

Anyone have any handy stats for the Kahr 380, Kel-Tec, LCP, and other competing pistols, so see how this competes for dimensions?

Good blog article:
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/01/15/sig-sauer-p238-380-1911/


Dangit, wrong title!!! I meant Sig 238, the new one:

 

[HorseSoldier]

Looks interesting. The link has an additional link to the Walther PK380 that I also had not heard about. I may have to give a look at both -- I've always kind of like the idea of 380 back ups, even if it's not the hardest thumping cartridge out there.

 

[jocko]

it's a sig

it doesn't compare in size and weight to the kahr, ruger or kt. But for sig it is small small small. They basically copied the colt 380, some have said they bought the rights off of colt to do so. Other than IMO the butt ugle grips it looks really nice, if you want a 1911 size 380.

Taurus just introduced their 380 entry into the pocket rocket world. One half the weight of the sig 380. Looks exaclty like the Ruger lcp and kt 380

 

[OleCodger]

Jocko.......

It's absolutely getting where you can't trust anyone!! I know for a fact after reading several threads that Ruger LCP copied Kel-Tec....bash, bash, bash.....now you're telling us that Sig copied Ruger.....bash, bash, bash...how disgusting I think I'll just boycott all three of them and buy me a good J C Higgins.....that way I'll know I punished the right one.

BTW, Thanks for always being there!!!! If you ever need a "backup", call me!!

 

[MICHAEL T]

I have 2 mustangs carry one a lot . Their in no danger of being sold or traded for that ugly thing

 

[Kind of Blued]

Some checkered wood grips would make it look like a real gun... That's a start.

I wish they could do the 232 in 9mm.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

They basically copied the colt 380, some have said they bought the rights off of colt to do so.

Wasn't the issue not with Colt, but with Kahr? The way I heard it, the whole reason Colt had to stop making the .380s (a popular product) was that their double-spring recoil design infringed on a Kahr patent.

Other than IMO the butt ugle grips it looks really nice, if you want a 1911 size 380.

"1911 sized"? The Colt .380s were far, far smaller than a 1911, and internally quite unrelated. The little 380s have 1911 lines, but they're little blowback guns. The only thing 1911 is the looks and ergonomics, they're quite tiny indeed.


My gut impression: this might be a pretty savvy product. Kel-Tec, Ruger, and Taurus are now producing nearly identical DAO polymer .380 pocket-pistols, Kahr has a somewhat different DAO pocket pistol. NAA and Seecamp, and now MagTech have long been making kinda blocky all-metal DAO pocket 380s. However, Sig is now the only player making an all-metal pocket .380 with a safety (pocket as in smaller than a Walter PPK), and with an exposed hammer no less. So maybe it's an attempt to appeal to pocket-gun buyers who distrust polymer, want a safety or exposed hammer, and/or dig the 1911.

It's a niche, but a niche that Sig pretty much dominates now.

 

[CPshooter]

I don't think I would be interested, but a "niche gun" is a good way to put it. I'm sure it will sell just fine in today's .380 market.

I am totally satisfied with my Ruger LCP. (I actually just got it back from the recall upgrades today) I just think that if you are going to carry a .380, it should be a pocket gun and very lightweight. If you are going to carry anything heavier/bigger than a LCP or Kel-tec, you might as well carry a bigger gun with a nice IWB holster. Just my 2 cents, but it's cool nonetheless.

 

[gbelleh]

Another pocket .380!
Looks interesting though. I was wondering when a Mustang copy would make an appearance.

 

[ridewv]

Just comparing the two the Colt looks like it was designed, while the Sig just looks.....assembled. With it's blocky slide and those grips, what were they thinking? Hopefully Sig will make other versions in the future.

 

[camper]

I'll just keep carrying my Colt Mustang Pocketlite. I hope the new Sig is a success because a lot of people really like the Mustang. Wonder if the mags are interchangeable?

 

[CPshooter]

Just comparing the two the Colt looks like it was designed, while the Sig just looks.....assembled. With it's blocky slide and those grips, what were they thinking? Hopefully Sig will make other versions in the future.

Unfortunately, Sig has been putting out a lot of guns that have this kind of aesthetic shortcoming. Too much flash and bling IMO. Assembled and not designed is a perfect way to put it.

But in the end they still make top-notch products that are reliable and shoot great. Plus they'll always offer the "no frills" version of every gun they make for us that don't like "platinum" guns

 

[Flame Red]

I wonder how the new Sig compares size wise to the Colts. The Mustangs were really thin! Sigs tend to be a bit thick. I would like someone that actually seen it comment on thickness.

The Colt Pony is one of my favorite carries. They are so small and easy to handle. I like the all stainless steel version even though they are a bit heaver.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

I wonder how the new Sig compares size wise to the Colts. The Mustangs were really thin! Sigs tend to be a bit thick. I would like someone that actually seen it comment on thickness.

We're just speculating here, but I'd assume comparable thinness. Sig probably just took the basic Mustang design and gave it Sig-like "lines" in terms of the angles cut in the slide and whatnot.

Same way their 1911 is a true 1911, but looks vaguely Sig-like due to the contours, rather than being actually chunky in the body like even single-stack Sig pistols are.

 

[Girodin]

Those grips make it look like it cane from a lego set or something.
With different grips I imagine it would look better. If it ran as well as my mustang and had the non funky grips available I would be interested in one provided it cost less than what I could buy another mustang for. I would have high expectations for the reliability of a sig. Reliability is a big issue with small pocket autos. The shot show has taught me to not expect products for 5 years if ever.

it doesn't compare in size and weight to the kahr

Have they even started shipping these yet. It is probably alright in this context since we are comparing another shot show gun but it gets tiresome to see constant comparisons to vaporware.

 

[jocko]

a pocket SINGLE ACTION. sure in hell not for me.. cocked and locked in ones pocket, sure in hell not for me. Gonna hoster it, get a 9mm, .

a niche gun no more no less, sig didn't have to do much, just copy the mustang and produce, about like what Ruger did with the lcp, copy and produce.

oh yes those aluminum grips SUCK!! a nice wrap around rubber grip would have done much better in looks and feel, and I guess what ever happend togood ol wood grips. And to think these gun companies pay these "engineers" good money to design things ...

 

[Girodin]

a pocket SINGLE ACTION. sure in hell not for me.. cocked and locked in ones pocket, sure in hell not for me.

A lot of people have this visceral reaction to the mustang. Visceral really is the best word to describe it. I have never even heard of the safety becoming disengaged on a mustang let alone been able to confirm an actual factual incident of it happening. The mustang pocket carries very the same way any pocket auto should be carried, in a pocket holster. The safety simply is not going to disengage its self.

The uneducated and inexperienced freak out about carrying DAO pistols too. Just the other day I had a someone insist carrying my DAO pistol (I don't remember if it was the Khar or Glock) was unsafe because it had no safety. A similar visceral and erroneous conclusion and I have heard of and confirmed ND with such pistols.

Not wanting to have to disengage a safety is a legit concern, but to me is not a big deal at all provided one is accustomed to doing it. If one doesn't shoot a gun enough to be accustomed to disengaging the safety I think they will have issues trying to use any small pistol for defense. I can shoot the single action mustang better than any other DAO pistol of even remotely similar or smaller size that I have tried. Needing to disengage the safety is a very small compromise for that to me.

Not saying that there is anything wrong with you personally not wanting one but there is nothing wrong per se with a single action pocket pistol.

a niche gun no more no less,

I would say that all the pocket .380s are in fact niche guns.

Pocket .380 is a niche unto itself and the the KT, Ruger, and seecamp all fill sub niches within it.

just copy the poney and produce, about like what Ruger did with the lcp, copy and produce

It appears a copy of the Mustang not the pony, although we cannot see the insides. If it is a copy and it sells like the ruger copy then it will prove a great business move.

Obviously it is only a shot show gun but sig makes nice guns IMO and a pocket sig is interesting and would be a great addition to the market. If the above pistol or something similar to it makes it to market it will be to the chagrin of another manufacture looking to push their new pocket .380 and a higher price point than most of the current offerings.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

It appears a copy of the Mustang not the pony, although we cannot see the insides. If it is a copy and it sells like the ruger copy then it will prove a great business move.

Further, note that Ruger made the LCP because Kel-Tec didn't patent it, and now Taurus has released about the same thing.

The Colt .380s, however, have been OOP for about a decade, so Sig isn't stepping on anyone's toes.

I'm glad to see it, myself. I imagine it won't sell anywhere near how the KT/Ruger/Taurus will, but it almost perfectly addresses the complaints some may have about the LCP-style guns.

 

[bannockburn]

MatthewVanitas

I believe the Colt/Kahr patent issue revolved around Colt's Pocket Nine pistol, not the Colt Pony. It had something to do with the design and placement of the double action trigger mechanism. Actually the Pocket Nine was a very compact 9mm. pistol in its own right; being just a little larger than a Walther PPK. I would love to see Colt (or SIG for that matter), bring back the Mustang and Pony designs.

 

[jocko]

yup

dead right it is the mustang and not the poney. I think the poney was DA. sorry about that.. have to agree IMO the Poney in DA would have been nicer for a pocket gun..

 

[Girodin]

IMO the Poney in DA would have been nicer for a pocket gun..

I am not insinuating that your opinion is wrong, it is after all just an opinion. Would you care to give your reasoning as to why the Pony is a nicer pocket gun.

 

[MICHAEL T]

The little 380s have 1911 lines, but they're little blowback guns. The only thing 1911 is the looks and ergonomics, they're quite tiny indeed.

They are not a blowback pistol The Mustang family are about the softest shooting 380 you will ever fire.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

dead right it is the mustang and not the poney. I think the poney was DA. sorry about that.. have to agree IMO the Poney in DA would have been nicer for a pocket gun..

Only thing is, the Pony actually has plenty of competition, with NAA, Seecamp, and Magnum Research making all-metal DAO pocket 380s.

A Mustang-copy like the 238 is the only single-action-only pocket 380 on the market. Plus it's all metal, has an exposed hammer, replaceable grips, and other such things that traditionalists like.

Personally I'd like it more if Sig hadn't sig-ified the lines of it, but I'm still pleased by the overall concept. I'm just not 100% sure I want a gun with a manual safety, as my main pistol is a CZ PCR with decocker only, and I like not having "a switch that makes the gun not work."

 

[jocko]

girodin: I personally think a pocket pistol should be DA and not SA. and ur right it is just my opinion being stated here....nothing to remember when pulling out the DA handgun over one with cocked and locked or not even cocked and locked.

 

[jpatterson]

Looks like something made in Junior High shop class.